yudantaiteki Wrote:EDIT: I just saw another example of this in a manga I'm reading: あのバカ、相手のイギリス兵に握手しようとのこのこ出てって...撃たれてしんだんだとよ。

Hope it's ok for me to jump on this with a question... but what's the function of the と in the だとよ at the end?

Also, is the って in 出てって the casual quoting particle? Would it be representing "I heard" in this case, or am I way off?

Thanks

出てって is 出ていって (行って). I think the last と is this father reporting what he heard about his son's death. I'm not 100% sure of that, though.

yudantaiteki Wrote:出てって is 出ていって (行って). I think the last と is this father reporting what he heard about his son's death. I'm not 100% sure of that, though.

Ah right, thanks again!

Tori-kun Wrote:

Quote:Tame ni can only be replaced by noni when one does something in the process of achieving a goal.

体を強くするために毎日プールで泳いでいる。 I'm swimming every day in the pool to strenghten my body. (The reason why I find the explanation given strange, is that "strenghtening my body" is in fact a goal one achieves by the process of swimming every day. So for me this sentence is not explaining the difference between those forms that can express an "in order to.." in English quite well)
体を強くするのに毎日プールで泳いでいる。 wrong!

Can someone explain that?

The 'noni' clause contains the process. It has to be both goal and process. It seems the difference can be subtle.

日本語の新聞を読むのに辞書を使う。
I use a dictionary to read Japanese newspapers.
(ie the process of reading the newspapers involves using a dictionary)

p.335 Wrote:noni is similar in meaning to Vinf/nonpast 'tame ni' ('in order to'). The latter purely means 'purpose' but the former retains the meaning of 'in the process of', even when it means 'purpose'.

It says 'noni' doesn't work in 「生きるために食べる。」b/c the noni clause isn't really a process (but it is a purpose). "to be alive/to survive" is the goal, but maybe be we don't conceive of ourselves as being actively in the process of being alive?

Whereas the process is more apparent in 「この町で生きていく　ために/のに　月に２０万円が必要だ。」 To keep living in this town, we need 20万/month.

So I guess "strengthen my body" is seen more as an ultimate goal than an ongoing process. "I swim to strengthen my body" works with 'tame ni' in Japanese. But the 'noni' version - "While strengthening my body, I swim" sounds iffy. (They mark it "??") "I run to get fit" vs "In getting fit, I run".

hmm, not sure if my explanation adds anything.

Thora Wrote:So I guess "strengthen my body" is seen more as an ultimate goal than an ongoing process. "I swim to strengthen my body" works with 'tame ni' in Japanese. But the 'noni' version - "While strengthening my body, I swim" sounds iffy. (They mark it "??") "I run to get fit" vs "In getting fit, I run".

hmm, not sure if my explanation adds anything.

I think it might have added an 'English parallel grammar test', because
'In reading the newspaper, I use a dictionary' and 'I use a dictionary to read the newspaper' both are fine, while 'In getting fit, I run' is, as you say, 'Iffy'.

But I don't know if this parallel holds up very far as a test because I don't have a good understanding of this grammar myself to say if it holds up for other examples. If anyone happens to have a few examples of sentences where you can and cannot substitute のに it'd be interesting to see.

@Thora and SomeCallMeChris: Thanks!! Both of your explanations were very enlightening:) I guess I will need to be careful about のに in future.
I read a bit further on that topic of "in order to..."-clauses and all in all there are obviously 4 ways in Japanese, namely with those listed above; it seems they have different usages, although their translation into English are pretty much the same (or am I wrong?).
From what I read/found on the internet in explanations I wrote the usage for what is expressed behind the phrasing. 'OK' means that I understood it, whereas '?' indicate I couldn't find any good explanation and advice is needed :)

①ために　理由／目的 OK
Question: I encountered this expression also with は following に. Is the difference only emphasis?
②のに　"In the process of~" OK
③ように　状態 OK
④には　?? I found には expressing "in order to" also once but cannot find the example sentence right now..

Tori-kun Wrote:④には　?? I found には expressing "in order to" also once but cannot find the example sentence right now..

It can be useful to break down such double particles and think about what each particle is doing in a particular sentence. には　is used for emphasis in some sentences. When it means "in order to", I think of it as Purpose に + は　(sentence topic/contrast/discourse topic/emphasis?).

に alone can mean "for (the purpose of)".
この辞書は漢字の勉強にいい。 This dictionary is good for studying.

Here, Vるには is topic and has Vるためには　meaning:
食べるには皮をむかねばならない.
To eat it, you have to peel it. (Kenkyuusha)

Purpose のに　is [(usually action) V non-past + nominalizer の + purpose に] ("for the purpose of doing".) 　From DoBJG (p. 336 note 2):　の　is often dropped in conversation when 'noni' clause is topic, so ～Vるのには　→　～Vるには.
すくやきを作るには、何が要りますか。
What do you need to make sukiyaki?

Is that what you had in mind?

　
btw, for your list, there's also [V(masu stem) ni motionV] (see 'ni5' in DoBJG). Note that Nする　(eg. 勉強する) can be either 勉強しに行く/来る　or 勉強に行く/来る ("come/go to study").

I'll post a separate response to #1, Tori-kun. I started writing about "は and emphasis" and got a bit carried away...

今日は都合が悪くて行けません　ｖｓ 今日は都合が悪いだから行けません

Ran across this in core2k (former sentence) and feeling my lack of handle on the grammar since I had never seen くて used in a sort of "because" manner. Is there a nuanced difference between the sentences?

vix86 Wrote:今日は都合が悪くて行けません　ｖｓ 今日は都合が悪いだから行けません

Ran across this in core2k (former sentence) and feeling my lack of handle on the grammar since I had never seen くて used in a sort of "because" manner. Is there a nuanced difference between the sentences?

The second sentence is incorrect. You can't use だ after 悪い.

「今日は都合が悪いからいけません」 or 「今日は都合が悪いですからいけません」 would be fine.

Somehow 「今日は都合が悪くて行けません」 sounds more natural to me, though it's hard to explain why. Probably because non-native speakers overuse the から grammar. They're certainly all correct sentences that have the same basic meaning.

くて doesn't exactly mean because, it's more just a form that allows you to continue the sentence. "Today is inconvenient for me, (I'm going to continue the sentence) I can't go." It just so happens that in English you would probably use 'so' here.

The second sentence is incorrect. You can't use だ after 悪い.

Huh, for some reason I keep thinking you can follow an adjective with plain form　です. But now that I think about it, only ever hear stuff like ”あつい～” or ”あついですね～！” so I guess it makes since.

But ya, I could see the くて sentence sounding more natural. ＋て still just doesn't feel natural to me for things that aren't a sequenced list of things done. Like "i want to meet and chat." 出会ってしゃべりたい, assuming its right, I still want to slap a conjunction in there like それで. Eventually...

The problem is that だ is not "plain form です". です has a wider range of uses than だ does -- in some cases it's acting as the copula, in others (such as in 悪いです) it's acting purely as a politeness marker without any meaning. 悪い already means "it is bad" by itself and does not need a copula.

て only has to be a sequential list of things done when you're talking about actions.　都合が悪い is not an action, so saying 都合が悪くて typically will give a situation that results in the next part of the sentence.

At a basic level, XてY means that X is true, and then Y occurs or is true. This can have a lot of different meanings -- it might mean "X and then Y", it might mean "X results in Y", it might just mean "X and Y". In this case it's close to a cause and effect meaning.

I just came across this sentence in 新完全マスター文法N1:

一人の人間の明るさは、場を明るくするにとどまらず、周囲の人々に心身の活力をも与える。

What I think is interesting about it is the をも before 与える. Normally when you would use を, but you want to add the meaning of 'also,' you drop the を and just use も (I.e., 'I ate cheese' would be 「チーズを食べた」, but 'I also ate cheese' would be 「チーズも食べた」. You wouldn't normally say チーズをも食べた in everyday speech).

Is there anything special going on here, or does をも just mean the same thing as も but in a more literary style? I feel like I've definitely heard this before, but never really thought about it.

をも is found in written language sometimes; it's just more emphatic than も.

yudantaiteki Wrote:をも is found in written language sometimes; it's just more emphatic than も.

Kind of what I expected then. Thanks!

まあできたらできたでいっか

Is the でいっか in the above sentence just でいいか?

For context the previous two lines were:

"クッソー 功介いねえんじゃ キャッチボールしかできねえじゃん"
"だからさ そういうことは功介に彼女ができてから考えたら？"

Thanks!

Yes.

I've noticed that EDICT and the Core2k deck is saying that からだ is 身体 but checking Weblio as well as two prominent 国語辞書 don't show this they show the writing that I had known for a while: 体. I think one of the two notes that it COULD be 身体 but the J-E dictionary isn't showing that. I notice that online that WWWJDIC mentions that からだ　is a ’ぎくん’ (they mean 熟字訓 reading?) but looking up either kanji in　漢語林 shows no mention of a 熟字訓 so...

Is it fair to say that I can probably edit that entry in my core deck and fix this error.

明鏡国語辞典 certainly lists 身体 as being one of the ways of writing からだ, so it's definitely not an error. 体 is most common, 身体 is the second most common. You should know both of them, since even 身体 is used quite regularly (there is also an older varient of 身体 that is obscure enough that you don't need to know it, and it doesn't come up on IME).　　I'm guessing that 身体 is pronounced as しんたい more often than 体 is.

Ya I just asked my JTE about it and he said that ya 身体 is read as からだ sometimes and that its like おみやげ is a special reading for　土産.

Hey, I'm getting mixed up with these forms, sounding so alike to me.

によって　（手段・根拠・場合・原因を現す）
But which form (によって、によっては、により、による) expresses 手段・根拠・場合・原因, respectively? Like this:

によって 手段 ?
によっては 根拠 ?
により 場合 ?
による 原因 ?

In Rikai-sama they have the same meanings, but I'm not sure if it sounds 自然 when expressing 手段 with all of these forms. Can't really see the grammar behind it, to be honest. Thanks for any precious help!

Edit: Ok, it seems like による　is just a noun modifier, f.e. N１によるN２. Can't think of an example sentence, though. In DoIJG I found により／によって that により is only used in written Japanese. によって can only be replaced by により when it means "dependency", f.e. depending on the person, the medicament will have different effects.

That's it. You can't separate them into the 4 meanings like you're trying to do; it's just grammar. により vs. によって is a lot like 書き vs. 書いて.

Thanks for answering my previous question, especially to magamo for his explanations regarding yamato numbers.

I'm here with yet another one:

この仕事は来月の下旬には終わります。

この しごと は らいげつ の げじゅん に は おわります

It's once again from core6k.

Are there really two topic markers は in this sentence? Or is this a mistake? Or some grammar I don't know?

A sentence can have multiple は. They can be used to show contrast as well as mark a topic (which really aren't completely separate things). This is especially common with negatives, but occurs with positives as well, as in this case. It's usually hard to say for sure without more context why は was used there -- in some cases the "contrast" meaning is not very strong and it can be hard to explain why it's used.

この仕事は来月の下旬には終わります。

は sets up a topic, and what follows is a comment about it. Basically triggering you to 'keep this in mind'.
First この仕事は raises the topic, and then continues with 来月の下旬には to further narrow down what is to be commented on, and then 終わります is the comment. So 終わります ((it) will end) is a comment foremost regarding the job, but more specifically what will happen to it in the last 10 days of next month. Without the second は, the sentence will mean much the same thing, but there is less of sense of talking specifically about what will happen next month. To understand the nuance a little better imagine the following two English sentences:

Regarding this job, In the last ten days of next month, it will end. (with second は)
and
Regarding this job, it'll end in the last ten days of next month. (no は)

In a more loose translation, you'd probably forego the use of 'regarding', and just say:
In the last ten days of next month this job will come to an end.
But I kept it in there to preserve the structure of the Japanese more accurately.

Another day and another question

グダグダ言ってっと投げっぞ

Can anyone clarify what 言ってっと is a contraction of? Is this another version of ~ておく? Or is the と acting as a conditional?

Thanks!