IceCream Wrote:actually, i think you are right. From tomorrow, i'm changing my focus. Even if it takes longer, and is a bit more difficult, its probably more worthwhile in the long run.

i won't stop with the other stuff, but downgrade it, and not feel the need to get it all done quickly. Quality, not quantity...

thanks!

Whilst I agree that using subs2srs is a lot more fun and better quality, more natural, Japanese to learn from; I don't think its quite as clear cut as he thinks.

Learning resources have their place. KO2001/Smart.fm are highly structured and because of that they are also very efficient. You can cover more material, faster, and see quicker short term benefits. With subs2srs, as pubbie stated you have to "pick sentences". Not everything is useful to you, either because it is too easy, too hard or for various other reasons. Every sentence from KO2001 is basically i+1, meaning every sentence is useful to you.

But there's no reason why their use should be mutually exclusive. Both subs2srs and KO2001 are hugely beneficial for Japanese learners. I think its foolish to dismiss either of them offhand.

IceCream Wrote:Although subs2srs is easy to use, unfortunately, my computer has now totally stopped being able to bittorrent anything... i just get an I/O error every time. Maybe it's cos i don't have my own internet connection, or maybe my laptop's too old and rubbish... I have made decks with the few Atashinchi no danshi episodes i managed to download before it stopped completely, and I wish i could make more of my own.

When you say you've made decks, does that mean you found Japanese subtitles? AtaDan has my favorite actor in it, and being able to make a deck from one of his shows would make me just about giddy.

Also, I have all of the episodes....I'm not sure how I could get them to you, but if you want I can try? Maybe use HJ-Split and Megaupload, or something....

I just checked out the toki wo kakeru shoujo deck. It's a great idea but I'd not bother with the English translations. The english subs on this one are bad. A lot of stuff is completely mistranslated.
Ex:
先月 行ったじゃん 千昭 そればっか
We went last month. That's stupid, Chiaki.

When the actual meaning is more like "We went last month. That's all you think about Chiaki". the ばっか is not 馬鹿, it is ばかり

I registered because i wanted to say that the idea of shadowing using any subs is very useful to me. Using any of the subs (in any language) for a drama or movie with subs2srs (since it is the timing that is important not the text itself) will result in mp3s that have the length of ONE SENTENCE! i'll just pop the mp3s i like into my mp3-player and voilà! Thanks dudes! Yet another tool in my arsenal!

IceCream & Kaede:
If you two are planning on timing subs for "AtaDan", I recommend you use aegisub. Put the j-lines from dramanote in place of the translated lines in the english subs for AtaDan (since they are already timed perfectly to the videos).
It takes about ~1h to do one episode. After that you can create a nice deck which you could share
This should probably be in a different thread though.

blackmacros:
"Every sentence from KO2001 is basically i+1, meaning every sentence is useful to you."
Holy crap, you don't pick from ko2001? DUDE your SRS reviews must be seriously boring... I sort of envied you when I read your re-examining your SRS workflow thread, but now... yikes bro! I think a sentence I really enjoy saying is worth over 101 contrived, trite THINGS from ko2001.
This should probably be in a different thread though!

p.s. The nobuta deck is really cool because yamaP talks really strange.. KON KON!
d.s.

edit: sorry to bombpersons since this is kinda off the topic of the deck downloads!

IceCream Wrote:unfortunately, my computer has now totally stopped being able to bittorrent anything... i just get an I/O error every time.

Thats prolly your harddrive complaining, try running scandisk/chkdisk http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315265 also try defragging (or buying a new harddrive!)
Or maybe the drive is totally full or something

edit: sorry again to bombpersons!!

' Wrote:Only an idiot would force himself to go through those KO2001 or SmartFM or product X sentences, when you can pick sentences from your favorite material in whatever order you wish (be it that ko2001 order or typical stupid japanese school order or words/kanji/grammar you choose to prioritize because of how fun/interesting they are)

Idiot is a bit harsh, dont you think? Why is there a suddenly backlash against KO?

I use KO becuase the result are great. Maybe/Maybe not better that doing the Sub2srs, but that is yet to be detrimined.

After RTK, I wanted to make my reviews the most useful they could be in the shortest time possible, which is why I searched long and hard on the net to find a set of books that listed kanji in order of frequency/priority. I was also concerned with readings of the kanji, with KO addresses.

The reason I think people take to KO is they see real, high results in a short time, and that is motivating, which makes it fun. Also the books cover such a range of words, you are really set up to understand a variety of topics.

If its not motivating or fun for you, then of course something else would probably be better.

No need for name calling though, dont you think? And if you haven't gone thru it, then......


I haven't done Subs2srs yet. I dowloaded a deck and first impression was "That is a lot of reviews". And of course since it is the software program making the cards and not a person, thngs like "何”　can pop up a number of times, which seems to me to be wasted time.

However, other that that the potential looks amazing and I would like to try using it sometime in the future

zazen666 Wrote:I haven't done Subs2srs yet. I dowloaded a deck and first impression was "That is a lot of reviews".

Duuuuude... Youre not going to do all of the cards, just the ones you are interested in... Heres a very simplified process;
1. get exposed to a word (or something else) you want to learn,
2. find a sentence with said word in a deck of your favorite drama. (I use the tsv directly)
3. learn said word
4. ????
5. PROFIT!!

Much better than ko2001, if you ask me. I might do a few ko2001 sentences later, but first I'm gonna play around with a modification of the movie-method I've thought of.
I will try anything that gets me closer to my goal, and so should all of you. It is a BAD IDEA to go rtk->taekim->ko2001 just because some random stooges on the internets say you should...

I wonder if it isn't out of lazyness people go with (boring) pre-choosen material like ko2001.

"Why is there a suddenly backlash against KO?"
No. The question should be: Why hasn't anyone criticized ko2001 UNTILL NOW?
Don't accept what people say just because they have a high post-count on a forum (that just means they are idiots who waste their time on forums and nothing else)

EDIT: This is not very relevant to the topic, perhaps this conversation/argument/fight-to-the-death should be held in one of the BAjillion threads proselytizing the use of ko2001?

Nonpoint,

First, you steps for using the subs2srs is different than another person's would be. I don't use subs2srs to learn words. I find words via subs2srs to be sure, but I'm also learning the entire sentence and why it's being used (to the limit of my abilities and resources). This is just pointing out that it's a resource and people will use it differently.

Second, KO2001 is resource. And yes, it is out of laziness that I'm using it (well, smart.fm Core 2000 and 6000 in my case). Dozens of other people have put together the effort for me to cherry pick at will. Same reason I use RTK instead of figuring out and ordering all the kanji on my own (laziness). Same reason I use subs2srs cause I sure as hell am not going to type in all those sentences myself.

You're not criticizing KO2001. To criticize supposes a critical analysis which you're not offering. You're just bad mouthing it and borderline insulting others that use it. There's been plenty of criticism of it in the other threads, and plenty of praise.

How about this, instead of giving people advice on what they must not do, how about offer up what's working and not working for you. Not everyone on this forum is brand new to the game. Some are already fluent, just wanting to improve Kanji. Some are native Japanese interested in our discussions in learning. Some are beginners. Some are intermediate.

By talking about your point in the game, and your current techniques and the reasons for your techniques, you give someone else what is needed to make a decision. Don't presume your way will work for any and all, cause it won't. No one has the exact same situation as you.

nukemarine, "Posts: 1124". You win one internet: http://www.freshmanandy.org/eyegasm/orig...ternet.jpg

EDIT: I ignore nukemarine because of this info about him: "Registered: 2007-07-15". Hes been at it for two years, and yet if you listen to the audio he recorded of himself reading japanese... Well, you should be able to draw your own conclusions of how effective study methods he has. This is not an ad hominem, this is a Nietzsche-style judge the philosophy by the philosopher.
(I hope my insulting him in this way motivates him to work harder, out of spite)

EDIT: Thread-hijacking is fun.

And yet what?

nonpoint Wrote:nukemarine, "Posts: 1124". You win one internet: http://www.freshmanandy.org/eyegasm/orig...ternet.jpg

EDIT: I ignore nukemarine because of this info about him: "Registered: 2007-07-15". Hes been at it for two years, and yet if you listen to the audio he recorded of himself reading japanese... Well, you should be able to draw your own conclusions of how effective study methods he has. This is not an ad hominem, this is a Nietzsche-style judge the philosophy by the philosopher.
(I hope my insulting him in this way motivates him to work harder, out of spite)

EDIT: Thread-hijacking is fun.

Posts this unpleasant are quite rare on this forum. Let's keep them rare, shall we?

nonpoint Wrote:nukemarine, "Posts: 1124". You win one internet: http://www.freshmanandy.org/eyegasm/orig...ternet.jpg

EDIT: I ignore nukemarine because of this info about him: "Registered: 2007-07-15". Hes been at it for two years, and yet if you listen to the audio he recorded of himself reading japanese... Well, you should be able to draw your own conclusions of how effective study methods he has. This is not an ad hominem, this is a Nietzsche-style judge the philosophy by the philosopher.
(I hope my insulting him in this way motivates him to work harder, out of spite)

EDIT: Thread-hijacking is fun.

Whoa man, too far. I'd stop now if I were you, you don't want to be like the first person to get banned on this forum like...ever. Just be nice OK?

nonpoint Wrote:nukemarine, "Posts: 1124". You win one internet: http://www.freshmanandy.org/eyegasm/orig...ternet.jpg

EDIT: I ignore nukemarine because of this info about him: "Registered: 2007-07-15". Hes been at it for two years, and yet if you listen to the audio he recorded of himself reading japanese... Well, you should be able to draw your own conclusions of how effective study methods he has. This is not an ad hominem, this is a Nietzsche-style judge the philosophy by the philosopher.
(I hope my insulting him in this way motivates him to work harder, out of spite)

EDIT: Thread-hijacking is fun.

As of this posting, you're at post count 10. Should I derive from that that in the last 2 years you made 7000 posts all over the internet? Or should I assume you were more passionate today and wanted to get something off your chest while other days would be less so? Or maybe I shouldn't assume too much about you and your life from a couple of numbers? I'll probably go with the latter.

Look, it's simple, you can go about insulting people's methods and others will just start to ignore you if that's all you bring to the table. We're looking for results and good ideas here based on what I've seen over time.

Don't want to take my advice, please don't. It's obvious I'm not good after two years. It's taking me 20 hours of effort just to get through half of Harry Potter (which Tobberoth will tell you is a lousy book to read in any language, much less Japanese). So I offer advice based as a guy with about 700 study hours, 300 of which is in Kanji via RTK. That's spread out over 2 years so it's not much per day. Fortunately I use an SRS to compensate for slow study.

Again, we get you're young and enthusiastic. Trust me, if your method and advice is good enough, people will follow it without you needing to degrade other material you never even looked at. However, you start insulting other users, you're likely to get muted at the minimum.

PS: The only audio I released was of a song back in February. That's not Japanese speaking. My speaking is much worse.

EDIT: Nope, you're right, I did do a reading in March. Gods that was horrible.

nac_est Wrote:Posts this unpleasant are quite rare on this forum. Let's keep them rare, shall we?

bombpersons Wrote:Whoa man, too far. I'd stop now if I were you, you don't want to be like the first person to get banned on this forum like...ever. Just be nice OK?

Thanks, your comments made me smile

Anyway, I just picked 20 really good sentences from some of my comedy/drama subs2srs decks in 1h30m (and I'm being generous with that time-estimate). I saw that blackmacros adds 180 sentences in the span of 6h from ko2001.
So in 6 hours:
Me: ~80 sentences (from my favorite drama or movie)
blackmacros: ~180 sentences (from the boring ko2001)

IMHO, I win.. since my sentences are high quality ones that make me really really WANT to do my reviews. Heres one I reviewed just now: 一緒に帰ろうだっちゃ！フリフリ！ haha always makes me laugh

EDIT: Oh great, nukemarine took the high road and now I look like a fool... Well played sir, well played.

I agree that K02001 sentence are very boring but they are more efficient. I'm gonna just try to get through them as fast as I can so I can get back to normal sentences =D

now we are idiots AND stooges. Great way to convince people. I mean, insults always lead to people respecting your opinions......

There's no law against using things like KO2001 and Japanese media at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. Not everyone who uses KO2001/etc. is only using that and nothing else. You can have sentences from KO2001 right next to ones from a book or drama.

Maybe people enjoy just learning something then seeing that pay off when they come to watch or read something later, even if it was learnt originally from something 'boring' like KO2001 and not from a drama or film. Maybe other people just have a higher tolerance for boredom or just don't hold the same standards that you do.

Maybe this can put it in perspective. There are different ways to teach a foreign word to a person: physical example, description, photo, comparison, etc. Some can be done without languages, some can be done in the foreign language, some can be done in your language.

Now, with pre-fabricated sentences from smart.fm or KO2001 it's fairly easy to learn the material should your native or strong secondary language be English. Not only do you get the word with a simple English description, you get a nifty sentence being used to illustrate it further. You can with some effort replicate the same thing using online dictionaries at yahoo.jp or sanseido with their sample sentences. You're taking time to do that, though.

Now, what exactly are you doing with sentences from subs2srs? These wonderful, enjoyable sentences with life and back story to each and every one? I am assuming that you're going to a dictionary of some sort and looking up words. Heck, you may even go so far as find an example sentence from that dictionary to illustrate and give more meaning to that word to you. With that, that wonderful, enjoyable sentences with life and back story has become even more wonderful and enjoyable.

Heck, even after that, you may come back to that sentence again and find there's even more to it. Case in point for me: "勘弁してよ　こんな所で。 俺が悪いみたいじゃん。". That last bit at the end is basically saying "And I'm being generous" in a way to make his insult of Riiko even more insulting. At first, I thought he's saying "Great, now I seem like a jerk.", but that didn't really mesh with her boss wanting to fight the guy. That's the beauty of Subs2srs in that it'll get you deeper into sentence even after you thought you had it together.

Note there's not a new word in that sentence for me, but the words are used in a way I could not figure out. See, I'm using subs2srs to give life to my Japanese. I'm not using it to memorize words or even phrases. Should I need to learn a new word cause it came up, there's Core series waiting to show me a basic meaning, and a basic sentence using it. I can even put a definition on the S2S card. But the point of S2S to me is the sentence as whole and not its parts.

So if it helps, just look at Core 2k+6k and KO2001 as a J-E dictionary for common words, with example sentences and maybe a picture or two. I just use them in an SRS so I don't forget them.

We all approach how we study differently. We review kanji, vocabulary, and even grammar differently (if at all). Is it any stretch to realize we'll approach sentence mining differently?

nonpoint Wrote:Anyway, I just picked 20 really good sentences from some of my comedy/drama subs2srs decks in 1h30m (and I'm being generous with that time-estimate). I saw that blackmacros adds 180 sentences in the span of 6h from ko2001.
So in 6 hours:
Me: ~80 sentences (from my favorite drama or movie)
blackmacros: ~180 sentences (from the boring ko2001)

IMHO, I win.. since my sentences are high quality ones that make me really really WANT to do my reviews. Heres one I reviewed just now: 一緒に帰ろうだっちゃ！フリフリ！ haha always makes me laugh

Actually its closer to 250 sentences in 6 hours now.

Don't delude yourself, what you're doing is studying too. Especially if you crack a dictionary to look up a word, or add another sample sentence for it.

The only difference is that I can cover material faster than you can because KO2001 is, by nature, more efficient than picking your own sentences.

If you can't abide 'boring' sentences then feel free not to use KO. But just because it isn't suited to you doesn't mean it isn't a useful resource.

blackmacros Wrote:

nonpoint Wrote:Anyway, I just picked 20 really good sentences from some of my comedy/drama subs2srs decks in 1h30m (and I'm being generous with that time-estimate). I saw that blackmacros adds 180 sentences in the span of 6h from ko2001.
So in 6 hours:
Me: ~80 sentences (from my favorite drama or movie)
blackmacros: ~180 sentences (from the boring ko2001)

IMHO, I win.. since my sentences are high quality ones that make me really really WANT to do my reviews. Heres one I reviewed just now: 一緒に帰ろうだっちゃ！フリフリ！ haha always makes me laugh

Actually its closer to 250 sentences in 6 hours now.

Don't delude yourself, what you're doing is studying too. Especially if you crack a dictionary to look up a word, or add another sample sentence for it.

The only difference is that I can cover material faster than you can because KO2001 is, by nature, more efficient than picking your own sentences.

If you can't abide 'boring' sentences then feel free not to use KO. But just because it isn't suited to you doesn't mean it isn't a useful resource.

I honestly enjoy learning any sentence, and the reason I use KO is because it is so exciting that it cover the basic vocabulary department very well.

Yeah I personally don't find KO boring. Some have actually made me laugh out loud. (Also, I can't help myself but I laugh every time I hear the katakanized version of "computer virus". It sounds like computer wheelius. Hilarious) Sure they're not as cool as stuff you take from native stuff, but the act of learning is itself fun for me.

It dawned on me suddenly that you guys are right, I am wrong. This is embarrassing, words cannot express how truly sorry I am for the anxiety, frustration and inconvenience that I caused. This is especially saddening because I really just wanted to help. I know I failed to deliver on this promise. You deserved better—a lot better—from me. Nothing is more important than regaining your trust and I hope you will give me the opportunity to welcome you onboard again soon and provide you the positive JetBlue Experience you have come to expect from us.

So anyway you guys will use ko2001, and I will use my native media and no contrived stuff at all: Lets see who quits halfway through due to boredom and who actually gets there, still loving the language
I will only read/write posts related to the topic of "Subs2srs deck downloads" hence forth.

That was so sarcastic I almost want to cringe. Almost.

nonpoint Wrote:So anyway you guys will use ko2001, and I will use my native media and no contrived stuff at all: Lets see who quits halfway through due to boredom and who actually gets there, still loving the language
I will only read/write posts related to the topic of "Subs2srs deck downloads" hence forth.

Sure thing. I'm sure you will have a lot of fun. I will to, when I finish KO2001 tomorrow (all of it, every single sentence, without quitting from boredom. As a side note I would have finished yesterday but I've slowed down my pace a bit due to the birth of my niece/goddaughter ) and immerse myself more fully in native media. In fact I've already been having fun, because every day I've been able to understand more and more of the anime I watch and the books and manga I read. Choosing to do KO2001 and enjoying native media are not mutually exclusive; they are complementary.

PS. I still love Japanese. Even more so now that I can actually understand a significant portion of it.

blackmacros Wrote:Choosing to do KO2001 and enjoying native media are not mutually exclusive; they are complementary.

That's not really true. It's the same with Khatz telling people to have fun all the time and yet he talks about adding 50 sentences a day to his SRS. The numbers just don't add up.

Time is limited. I can't really skip the SRS revisions or due cards start piling up, and when I'm done I have to choose. I can study and add new sentences from KO something or read a few chapters from a book or watch a dorama (or maybe do something else because I'm tired of Japanese all the time).

OK it's not always that bad but still most the time a choice has to be made. I'm not saying that to say that KO is not worth it, I think it is. But it's like false advertising to claim that you can have everything at the same time.