trying to read 死神のバラッド, whilst searching for every single word in a dictionary, to my surprise i noticed that the posessive particle の can also be written 乃!!! which, to me, is about the coolest thing ever (given my recent obsession with kanji) so... does anyone here knows of any other particles that can be written in kanji??

so far i know (mostly thanks to wikipedia):
どころか = 所か
が = ヶ (only in its ancient posessive use, it seems)
ほど = 程
きり = 切り
ころ/ごろ = 頃
くらい/ぐらい = 位
まで = 迄
め = 目
など = 等
なんか/なんて = 何か・何て
の = 乃
とも = 共

though i would love to be able to write things like は and に in kanji, anyone knows if it's possible? moreover, would japanese people be able to understand it, or would they be too archaic to be of use?

If you used kanji for all the particles, it would be pretty hard to discern from Chinese?

Many particles and words do have kanji forms even though only the hiragana are in wide-use. Most of us will be able to read it just fine, though the writing-style might be a little striking and 'odd'. Younger Japanese will often assume you're quite old if you use 綺麗　rather than きれい, for example. In some cases the kanji form is used on more formal/significant occassions, such as 此れ (これ）、何処（どこ）, which I mostly only see in government texts. 或る、有る、在る, is another example. Now adays everyone in Japan usually just writes ある, but there are kanji forms which are more specific as to the meaning. Everyone in Japan will be able to read these without problem though. In older novels and texts (from 1950s, etc) you're more likely to see kanji forms than the hiragana ones. 何處 (traditional form of 何処）is far more common in old texts than どこ (which I've never seen written in hiragana in books from that time period).

Some words, such as 爲る（する）are practically never written in kanji, but once again everyone will understand you. 積もり、筈、等, are very often written in kanji. Usually it's only the younger generation who has become lazy and uses the hiragana of everything now adays. 美味しい、駄目、煩い、不味い are usually always written in hiragana by teenagers, but you do have to know these kanji forms if you want to be able to read at a decently high level. Just like if you don't know the traditional forms of every kanji you'll be unable to read many names/books from the last generation.

If you enjoy the kanji forms though, use them all you want! It's a matter of preference, really, and it really creates a distinct writing style. There's no rule against it, just as there's no rule against using all the traditional characters than the simplified ones. I usually prefer the traditional forms of verbs and use 讀む rather than 読む for example.

I'd be a little more careful using 乃 and 迄 though. Very rare to see in writing. 丈（だけ）
I come across quite often, so that one's fine, but the first two...very stylized

I'm fairly sure that 等 is typically read とう, even when it's used in the sense of など, or as ら in cases like 僕等 and 彼等.

Very informative Aijin. Welcome to the forum
I have been using 迄 frequently in online chats. My Japanese friends are too polite to correct me

JimmySeal Wrote:I'm fairly sure that 等 is typically read とう, even when it's used in the sense of など, or as ら in cases like 僕等 and 彼等.

The context will usually make clear which reading is to be used, as there is a slight difference between など and とう even though the meanings are similar.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Very informative Aijin. Welcome to the forum smile
I have been using 迄 frequently in online chats. My Japanese friends are too polite to correct me

Well, it isn't technically incorrect to use 迄, and if you like it then there's not too much of a reason not to use it. It's much like how some English words have both alternative spellings and older forms: though the newer, simpler forms are more widespread, the older ones aren't incorrect. "Mayhap" is less common in English than "Maybe", for example, but it's still correct. Think of using kanji forms as an artistic flair. It can annoy some people though (One of my friends back in Japan wrote EVERYTHING using the traditional forms, which drove some of his teachers insane)

Mayhap? I think you have a larger English vocabulary than I do.
But then, I couldn't get into Stanford

It will indeed add some artistic flair! =]

"This is a pen." "This pen are red." "Mayhap it is you're pen."

Aijin Wrote:Younger Japanese will often assume you're quite old if you use 綺麗　rather than きれい, for example.

So, younger Japanese such as yourself think that way... It may just be me, but I use きれい when I mean "clean," "neat" and so on while I write it in kanji to mean "beautiful," "lovely" and such. So I'd write 綺麗 when talking about the person in your avatar and use kana when I say 部屋をきれいにする (tidy my room). Also, scenery can be 綺麗, 奇麗, or きれい depending on my mood.

I feel old...

Oh, I definitely don't think that way. But most of my peers certainly did. Unfortunately the more difficult-to-read and less-known character forms are slowly fading, which I feel is greatly weakening the artistic options of the language in literature. Sadly publishing houses in Japan encourage writers to not use any obscure words/characters/kanji forms of characters now normally written in hiragana, simply so that it can be read by a larger base and sell more copies. As sad as it is, many teenagers now adays can't even read '綺麗'! And the more arcane four-character-compounds will fly over even the heads of those with decent education.

Awh, thank you for the compliment about my picture

bombpersons Wrote:If you used kanji for all the particles, it would be pretty hard to discern from Chinese?

Heh, kinda, but not kinda!

I know how to answer this question but it is too long and i have too little knowledge off the top of my head to answer it in a quick succinct matter. It's something that i'd have to go home to spend acouple of hours typing out.

But I'm sure other smart blokes on this forum can answer this with ease

Quote:の = 乃

Everything can be written with kanji, kana are just heavily simplified kanji afterall. 乃 is (one of, see hentaigana on wiki) the source character(s) for の.

Quote:が = ヶ (only in its ancient posessive use, it seems)

Neither of those are kanji. When that is written in kanji it is 箇 or 個. When in kana sometimes it even uses the big ケ (双ケ岡) or is left as が.

は & に have kanji, but they are just the source kanji for the kana.
は：者、八、盤、半、葉、頗、波
に：爾、耳、二、兒、丹、仁
(bolded kanji is the source character for the current hiragana & katakana)

This is what okwave has to say:
「之」には日本語の助詞「の」に当たる意味があります。

「乃」には日本語の助詞「の」に当たる意味はありません。
いわゆる万葉仮名、真仮名に当たります。
古い字音が「ノ」だったのです。
「乃」を草書のように崩した字体から今の「の」が生まれました。

Also:

　漢文の中に用いられている「与」（と）とか「之」（の）のような日本語の助詞として読める文字もありますが、「と」という平仮名は「止」という漢字を、「の」という平仮名は「乃」という漢字をそれぞれ崩したものであって、平仮名の発生と漢文の助詞に当たる文字との関係はありません。

Edit:
http://miuse.mie-u.ac.jp:8080/bitstream/...080002.pdf
http://www.rockfield.net/cgi-bin/kanbunjoji/faq.cgi
These links explain the use of grammatical markers/particles in Kanbun texts. That's probably the closest you can get to writing particles in Kanji.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:This is what okwave has to say:
「之」には日本語の助詞「の」に当たる意味があります。

「乃」には日本語の助詞「の」に当たる意味はありません。
いわゆる万葉仮名、真仮名に当たります。
古い字音が「ノ」だったのです。
「乃」を草書のように崩した字体から今の「の」が生まれました。

Also:

　漢文の中に用いられている「与」（と）とか「之」（の）のような日本語の助詞として読める文字もありますが、「と」という平仮名は「止」という漢字を、「の」という平仮名は「乃」という漢字をそれぞれ崩したものであって、平仮名の発生と漢文の助詞に当たる文字との関係はありません。

Edit:
http://miuse.mie-u.ac.jp:8080/bitstream/...080002.pdf
http://www.rockfield.net/cgi-bin/kanbunjoji/faq.cgi
These links explain the use of grammatical markers/particles in Kanbun texts. That's probably the closest you can get to writing particles in Kanji.

thanks for your answer, i appreciate it, and thanks for making reference to 漢文, i had never heard of it, and i find it fascinating.
i did have to look for almost every word in the dictionary, and most of the grammar is way over my head, so i will write what i understood from it, in hopes someone will correct me if i got it wrong.

之 is equivalent to the japanese particle の, whilst 乃 isn't. the 草書 (grassscript) form of 乃 was the origin of the の character, but it bears no similarity in meaning.
与 and 之 were used in 漢文 literature with the same meaning as the と and の particles, whilst 止 and 乃 are merely the characters whose 草書 form were the source of the forms for 平仮名's と and の characters.

hopefully that's what it said, if it's not, please disregard the following.

my confusion stems from the use of Jim Breen's WWWJDIC, the following entry:

WWWJDIC dictionary Wrote:乃 【の】 (prt) (1) (occasionally ん) (uk) indicates possessive (...)

and in the example sentences it says:

WWWJDIC dictionary Wrote:1) 私のウェブページに来て私のことをもっと知ってください。

which seems to me that they are implying that it has the same use.
Could someone please explain this? do actual japanese dictionaries list 乃 as a possesive? if so, would a japanese person (an educated one) be able to understand it as such?

I've seen 乃 used as a stand-in for for の on a number of shrines/monument inscriptions here in Tokyo. Often these inscriptions are all-kanji. Maybe its a pre-ww2 thing?

mafried Wrote:I've seen 乃 used as a stand-in for for の on a number of shrines/monument inscriptions here in Tokyo. Often these inscriptions are all-kanji. Maybe its a pre-ww2 thing?

It's still in use especially in proper nouns. For example, 養老乃瀧 is a fairly large pub chain. 安芸乃島 is a famous sumo wrestler. Actually I often assume a word to be a proper noun if it has 乃. Whether this 乃 has something to do with の as a particle is beyond my knowledge. But these words do sound like "A waterfall for the aged" and "An island in Aki" to me if taken out of context.

Looks like I'll be reading more historical texts I definitely want to have "artistic flair" in my writing