To me 低い and 短い both seem to mean "short", but if that's the case I find it strange to have a kanji for each word.
At Smart.fm they give to examples sentences:

彼は背が低い
He’s short
(Low, short)

彼は足が短い
His legs are short
(Short, brief)

I can see the difference between something being "low" and something being "short", but apparantly they are used the same way. I have googlet are bit, and it seems 短い is used less often than 低い. But I stille don't know if there some subtle distinction between the two, or if something else is going on?

sprutnik Wrote:To me 低い and 短い both seem to mean "short", but if that's the case I find it strange to have a kanji for each word.
At Smart.fm they give to examples sentences:

彼は背が低い
He’s short
(Low, short)

彼は足が短い
His legs are short
(Short, brief)

I can see the difference between something being "low" and something being "short", but apparantly they are used the same way. I have googlet are bit, and it seems 短い is used less often than 低い. But I stille don't know if there some subtle distinction between the two, or if something else is going on?

短い applies to the length, and 低い applies to the height. It' just how "short" and "low" are used in Japanese is a little different. When you think about it, why is it "he is short" while we are talking about his height?

That makes sense. I have been thinking about some vertical vs horizontal distinction between the two, but length and height are some more robust and simpler terms to work with.
A worldwide standard for talking about height and length should be implemented, because I have the impression each langauge have its own approach to talking and describing them. Sometimes it can be really confusing.

Seems I'm a little too late... But I'll post anyway lol

Roughly speaking, 低い has two meanings: "short" and "low." When you say 低い meaning "short," you're referring to the distance from the "bottom" or the "base" and are picturing the "top" in your mind.

For example, you can say 彼は背が低い because you're talking about the distance from his feet to the head and are most likely picturing his head. Another example is 鳥が低く飛んでいる (a bird is flying low). You're referring to the distance from the ground to the bird and are picturing the bird.

By the same token, you can say 天井の低い部屋 (a room with a low ceiling), 低い鼻 (a flat nose), etc. (As you can see in the example of "a flat nose", 低い doesn't necessarily mean vertically short.)

低い can also mean "low in value" as in 身分が低い (be of low birth) and 質の低い (low-quality).

短い is "short" in the sense that something needs less space or time. Examples are: 短いスカート (a short skirt), 短い単語 (a short word), 短い周期 (a short cycle), 短い時間ですがお楽しみください (That's not very long, but please enjoy yourself.) 彼は先が短い (His days are numbered.)

Great explanations, magamo and masaman I, too, feel like I understand the context differences between those two words more.

#magamo
That was a nice eleboration of masaman's post.
So when you use 低い, height is the subject of the statement and you are describing the distance from top to bottom? And 短い is basically for everything else?
Or is this a too simple distinction?

「低い」と「高い」は高さを表す。 低いの反対は高い。
「短い」と「長い」は長さを表す。 短いの反対は長い。

sprutnik Wrote:#magamo
That was a nice eleboration of masaman's post.
So when you use 低い, height is the subject of the statement and you are describing the distance from top to bottom? And 短い is basically for everything else?
Or is this a too simple distinction?

Yeah, something like that. Of course there are exceptions. For example, when you're talking about "quantity," you often use 低い, e.g., 確率が低い (chances are slim), 気温が低い (the temperature is low). But I think it's too complicated to explain the difference by a simple rule. It might be better to learn finer points case-by-case.

It's not so complex I think. The confusion is in English, because it uses "short" to mean both "short in length" and "low in height, ie. opposite-of-tall".

高 and 低 are for "high" and "low".
長 and 短 are for "long" and "short" length.

彼は背が低い = his height is low/opposite-of-tall (i.e. he's short).
確率が低い = chances are low.
この糸は短い = this string is short.

vosmiura Wrote:It's not so complex I think.

Oh, really? How do you explain these?

腰の低い人 modest person
次元の低い話 vulgar talk
低い評価 poor marks (I know you can say "low marks" though.)
低い声 deep voice
声が低くてよくわからなかった He spoke so softly I didn't catch it. (Note that his voice isn't "deep" in this sentence.)
一段低く見る despise

時間は短いものだ Time passes by so fast.

I think even the greatest rule has tons of exceptions that render it useless in practice. Rules are only good for beginners and linguists, I guess.

Quote:I think even the greatest rule has tons of exceptions that render it useless in practice. Rules are only good for beginners and linguists, I guess.

(Perhaps) A bit off-topic, but if someone should be interested in the stages of learning, Hubert Dreyfus wrote a book many years ago called Mind Over Machine, where he explains why he dismisses the idea of "intelligent computers". He approach is that people start learning by rules, but eventually leave the rules behind and become intuitive, meaning they develop the expertise to differentiate between situations and applying the appopriate rule. Just came to think about it, when you said rules are good for beginners. They indeed are, but they also render useless over time when you approach the expert stage.

sprutnik Wrote:(Perhaps) A bit off-topic, but if someone should be interested in the stages of learning, Hubert Dreyfus wrote a book many years ago called Mind Over Machine, where he explains why he dismisses the idea of "intelligent computers". He approach is that people start learning by rules, but eventually leave the rules behind and become intuitive, meaning they develop the expertise to differentiate between situations and applying the appopriate rule. Just came to think about it, when you said rules are good for beginners. They indeed are, but they also render useless over time when you approach the expert stage.

I think he's right on the money. The thing is the rules you can find in your textbook are not that great. When I read a Japanese grammar and stuff, I'm always like, "Um, yeah, kind of..." I wonder why they don't explain, say, は vs. が in a simpler way. I don't think anyone can understand the difference between は and が if they are taught that は is "as for" or a topic marker.

magamo Wrote:How do you explain these?

mmm, that actually sounds fun!

腰の低い＝ describing the posture in which a person lowers his/her hip (squat) a little when talking to other people in order to look nicer, softer.
次元の低い = lower dimension.
低い評価 = lower appraisal.
低い声 = low pitched voice.
声が低くて = Japanese have this idea that low pitched voice is harder to hear. Though it is becoming outdated.
一段低く見る = consider (someone) as one level lower than (someone or something)
時間は短いものだ= time is short.

Not too bad, is it?

I agree it's better to just read/listen a lot to get the feel of it though.

magamo Wrote:Rules are only good for beginners and linguists, I guess.

My favourite quote this week...this month!

sprutnik Wrote:Just came to think about it, when you said rules are good for beginners. They indeed are, but they also render useless over time when you approach the expert stage.

...until you become a linguist.

On the "low" thing: aren't those examples just using 'low' metaphorically. We're still measuring relative height, it's just that the barometer is imaginary. You could substitute low in each case [edit -hadn't seen Masaman's response]

I used to think the Japanese expression "nose is high" meant that the person was snobby.

Thora Wrote:I used to think the Japanese expression "nose is high" meant that the person was snobby.

That's more like "the person is proud" eh? And there is 頭が高い、声が高い、目が高い、腰が高い、気が長い、首を長くして、etc,etc. Wow, it is such a mess.

Thora Wrote:On the "low" thing: aren't those examples just using 'low' metaphorically. We're still measuring relative height, it's just that the barometer is imaginary.

Yes. They're used in a figurative sense, if you will. The thing is there is no easy way to know how and when to figuratively use a word. Anyway, I'll throw a ridiculously curvy ball:

水の低きにつくが如し Water finds its own level.

Thora Wrote:

magamo Wrote:Rules are only good for beginners and linguists, I guess.

My favourite quote this week...this month!

Wow, thanks!

magamo Wrote:The thing is there is no easy way to know how and when to figuratively use a word.

You could always buy a dictionary of idioms and study them...

magamo Wrote:水の低きにつくが如し Water finds its own level.

That's Chinese, 孟子, isn't it? 水之就下也. "Like water flows to lower level."

It's not a good translation like yours, but I think it is how 低き is actually used here. Again, I agree the only way you can get real sense of correct usage of vocabulary is to read and listen a lot.

masaman Wrote:

Thora Wrote:I used to think the Japanese expression "nose is high" meant that the person was snobby.

That's more like "the person is proud" eh?

Oh... I just confused myself. So it can mean both big nose and snobby? Maybe I had it right after all. (btw snobby, proud, haughty have similar meanings).

You only have trouble with this if you translate to English. If you learn it in Japanese and keep it that way, there's no confusion.

Thora Wrote:

masaman Wrote:

Thora Wrote:I used to think the Japanese expression "nose is high" meant that the person was snobby.

That's more like "the person is proud" eh?

Oh... I just confused myself. So it can mean both big nose and snobby? Maybe I had it right after all. (btw snobby, proud, haughty have similar meanings).

It's not snobby kind of proud, but "my mom is proud" kind of proud. Like 子供が有名な大学に受かって鼻が高い means (I am) proud of my kid passing the entrance exam for a famous university, and is not negative.

Big nose doesn't sound very positive in English, but 高い鼻 is usually considered positive in Japan, so yea, you had gotten it almost right.

harhol Wrote:You could always buy a dictionary of idioms and study them...

Some of the examples in this thread are not idioms per se. It'd be a lot easier if every idiosyncrasy in a language is listed in a dictionary of idioms. If there were such a dictionary, I'd definitely buy one and put every single line into SRS.

masaman Wrote:That's Chinese, 孟子, isn't it? 水之就下也. "Like water flows to lower level."

I don't know who said that. I'm not sure if the English version is derived from the same quote either. I'm pretty sure he or she is way smarter than me, though.

Thora Wrote:Oh... I just confused myself. So it can mean both big nose and snobby? Maybe I had it right after all. (btw snobby, proud, haughty have similar meanings).

Yes and no. It can mean "proud of" but has no negative connotation while snobby or haughty guys are annoying.
優秀な息子を持って鼻が高いよ。I'm proud of my son!
彼女は鼻が高い。She has a long nose.

When 鼻が高い means "proud of something," usually the first person is the subject, i.e., "I" am proud of X. Sometimes it is used in a second/third person sentence as in かわいい嫁さんをもらって君も鼻が高いだろう。(Literal, awkward translation would be: You should be proud of your beautiful bride. Actual meaning is: I envy you. She's so cute!), but it's kind of rare. masaman should be able to explain this in more detail, I think.

Edit: misspelled masaman... Sorry!

magamo Wrote:

masaman Wrote:That's Chinese, 孟子, isn't it? 水之就下也. "Like water flows to lower level."

I don't know who said that. I'm not sure if the English version is derived from the same quote either.

Oh, I didn't know there is a saying like that in English. I learnt something. 孟子 is one of these guys who are like Chinese Socrates.

magamo Wrote:かわいい嫁さんをもらって君も鼻が高いだろう。(Literal, awkward translation would be: You should be proud of your beautiful bride. Actual meaning is: I envy you. She's cute!), but it's kind of rare. Masaman should be able to answer this, I think.

Your translation is always spot on. Do you do it for a living?

[re 鼻が高い] Gotcha (and in stereo )

So it's more like the English "hold one's head high" rather than "have one's nose in the air". [just to bug dear Mentat]

This nose idiom talk reminds me of a time in class we learned the idiom 灯台下暗し　（とうだいもと　くらし）　- the base of lighthouse (lamp) is dark (that area under the beam of light). We were asked to give a similar English idiom [sorry Mentat]. This adorable laid-back surfer dude, always slouched in the back and never saying a word, suddenly wakes up with a "That's easy! Stick it where the sun don't shine!" The class erupted.

The actual meaning is: [for Mentat's reading pleasure]

「灯台」は、昔の室内照明具のこと。灯台のすぐ下は却って光が届かず暗いことから、身近な事情に疎（うと）いこと。身近な事は、案外分かり難いものであるという喩え。

So a 'similar' English one might be more like "It was right under my nose".　(Sometimes we cannot understand or find things b/c they're too close to us)

masaman, I think it's a misquote. That was magamo. (funny that you should confuse us given your 2 names)