I've got a load of Light Novels I want to read however, whenever I try to read them I always end having to look up every other word... The grammer is fine, but I don't know the words =(

Is it worth just pressing on? On would it be more efficient to read something easier until I know enough words?

Don't look up anything. When you run into a word you don't know, make a note (if you want to) and simply keep reading. If you're going to stop every time you run into words you don't know, you'll get nowhere. Don't worry about it, if you get the geist of what a page is about, you'll understand the rest later. You will learn the commonly used words from context.

Ow yeah babe. Keep going on. The most interesting part is always the end, anyway. There you'll be understanding what you read a bit better.

It's hard to say without knowing exactly what you can read and how difficult the novels are. If you can understand enough while looking up a maximum of 2-3 words per page I'd say it's OK to continue. If that's impossible then the book is too hard for you.

I'm very new at reading, but maybe this will help you.

What I do is read a paragraph or two of a short story. As a go through this small amount of text, I'll look up all the words I don't know and write them down. Throughout the week, I'll glance at my notes of these words, maybe getting some example sentences of them, practice saying them... A week or so later, I'll go back to that story and re-read the same block of text (I usually forget what the story was about after a week or two - especially since I keep having to look up words). Re-reading the text, I'm more familiar with the words, and I can read through it more naturally. The second time I read, I don't look up any words, but I get a better "feel" of the story.

I'm sure this isn't the most efficient method, but I enjoy doing it this way. My attention span is not high enough for me to be able to read through a block of text not knowing half the words, or to be able to look up every word on a whole page.

Codexus Wrote:It's hard to say without knowing exactly what you can read and how difficult the novels are. If you can understand enough while looking up a maximum of 2-3 words per page I'd say it's OK to continue. If that's impossible then the book is too hard for you.

I think that's way too harsh. If he needs to look up 1 word each sentence, sure. But 2-3 words per page? Think about it, if you have to look up 3 words a page, you're understanding at least 80% of every page, more like 90%! Add in the fact that you will learn from context. I'd say, if you run into less than 3 words to look up each page, you're reading something way too easy.

I didn't mean to say that there should be only 2-3 unknown words per page. But rather if you limit yourself to looking up a maximum of a few words per page, do you still get a general idea of what's going on and are able to follow enough to enjoy what you read?

Codexus Wrote:I didn't mean to say that there should be only 2-3 unknown words per page. But rather if you limit yourself to looking up a maximum of a few words per page, do you still get a general idea of what's going on and are able to follow enough to enjoy what you read?

Oh... that's an idea I guess... but I personally think just the act of looking up makes it so unenjoyable. It's not so much how many words you look up, just that you have to be ready to look them up. Have a dictionary by your side or something like that. You just won't relax enough to just read and let things come.

So my personal limit is, if I can't understand each page (that is, if I can't write a synopsis of each page) I simply stop reading because I know it won't be enjoyable. If I can, I ban my dictionary and just read. Sometimes I keep a notebook close and write down compounds to look up later, but in general I just keep going. It's quite amazing how much one learns from just reading.

It's sorta the same online. If I have to use rikaichan, I try to find easier targets. (I still mine from much harder sources obviously, I just don't read em for enjoyment )

What I'm doing right now is writing down sentences and phrases in a notebook as I read. Later I look up the words, and write down some notes and definitions. Once I'm done the book, I plan to just read over my notes so that I really understand the words and sentences I had trouble with. For the record, I've already read this light novel before without looking anything up, and I also have an English translation(it's not that great, though). I have no intention of SRSing any of this. It feels like my comprehension has made a jump lately, doing this everyday and listening to anime and drama CDs.

For some reason, it doesn't bother me to pause and write stuff down. Just writing down words didn't work well in the past, especially since sometimes I parsed them wrong and couldn't look them up.

I have a simple rule:

If you can enjoy it without looking -anything- up, just read it and don't look anything up.

If you can't enjoy it, don't do it. That means that if looking up even a single work makes it 'work' instead of 'fun', don't do it.

There's plenty out there to read that will be fun, and you can come back to the hard stuff later. I started with Yotsuba& mangas, even though I really didn't care for them... But they were easy enough (just barely) to read, and that made them fun. By the end of the 8th manga, I like the series enough that I'll probably re-read it for fun, even though it's below me now.

I don't mind looking up words in my electronic dictionary when I'm reading. I just drop it on my lap, grab the book, and have at it. When I hit a word I don't know, it takes all of 10-20 seconds to look it up, and I move on. I'd rather have a good idea of what's going on than a vague, ill-informed idea of what's going on, only to find out later I got it wrong, or missed something vital. Sure, I can re-read it later, but why re-read it when I can get it right the first time? (Or at least get close.)

I tried not looking anything up, and while it works fine for manga, I find it's way too annoying for novels. It's like having some drunk dude tell you a story. Ugh.

20 seconds is way too long when you're in the middle of a book. Must take you ages to read each chapter. That becomes study mode, destroying enjoying mode. I also wonder if 20 seconds is accurate, unless you have furigana.

I don't see the point in skimming a text and ignoring the parts you don't know. Getting the gist of a story might make you feel good but you aren't really learning anything.

harhol Wrote:I don't see the point in skimming a text and ignoring the parts you don't know. Getting the gist of a story might make you feel good but you aren't really learning anything.

I think so long as you mark down words/sentences you're unfamiliar with study them afterward I think it's a good thing. Even if you don't, I find it's fun to just try and recall all the kanji you see. Certainly helps to cement them in, seeing them in real use.

harhol Wrote:I don't see the point in skimming a text and ignoring the parts you don't know. Getting the gist of a story might make you feel good but you aren't really learning anything.

Wrong, you learn a lot more just reading and actually getting somewhere that staying on that first chapter for a month. Looking up words isn't hard, you can do that whenever. Actually reading and building exposure and reading comprehension, that's what's important.

It's like when listening. Beginners don't understand anything, even if they know most of the words. Whenever a word they don't know pops up, their whole train of thought is lost and they don't understand anything. With exposure and training, they learn to ignore the words they don't know and understand from the context and the words they actually DO know. The same is true with text. Instead of stopping at the word, read on. Chances are, you'll understand just fine without having to look up that word. It's even true in your native language. When you run into a word you don't know, do you look it up? Do you ask for a definition? Probably not. You understand it from context and the conversation at hand. If it pops up in a text, there's no way you're going to leave the text and look it up. You'll read on, it will be mentioned again, and you'll get it. That is what you want to attain in japanese.

When you want to mine for words, do that. When you want to get exposure and read, do that. It's two different forms of learning and they aren't mixed well.

Hey guys thanks for all the replies =D
While it would be nice to just read for enjoyment, I'm talking about mining from light novels, so I don't mind looking up words.

I tried reading without looking the words up, and I do get the gist of what is happening, however I didn't like skipping without full understanding =( And of course it isn't like manga where the pictures can bring you back into the story if you find a patch where you don't understand enough.

I think what I will do is read through and only srs words that seem to be vital and / or interesting. That way I won't be spending most of my time in a dictionary =D

Everyone seems to be talking about reading for fun. Everything time I read I always end up mining. Maybe reading more, but not always making it studying would be more beneficial?

Tobberoth Wrote:

harhol Wrote:I don't see the point in skimming a text and ignoring the parts you don't know. Getting the gist of a story might make you feel good but you aren't really learning anything.

Wrong, you learn a lot more just reading and actually getting somewhere that staying on that first chapter for a month. Looking up words isn't hard, you can do that whenever. Actually reading and building exposure and reading comprehension, that's what's important.

True, but I don't see why a chapter would take you a month if you looked up each word you didn't understand. Like rich_f said, it would take 10-15 seconds each time. And this is light novel reading, so the assumption is that you already know several thousand words. Obviously a complete beginner reading a light novel and looking up each word they didn't know would be agonizing, but for an intermediate I'd say it's more important to achieve a complete understanding in order to get into the habit of appreciating the finer details. Going slowly and gradually speeding up is better than starting out fast and trying to maintain that speed, imo.

Requesting light novels....manga....[edit: TV shows too]. Bombperson, aren't you supposed to be studying hard for your important A-levels right now?

With love and concern, from someone older than you who always found fun ways to procrastinate whenever I was supposed to be studying. Get to it! =]

Im a big fan of CYOA type books when breaking into Japanese novels.

(Search for 魔人竜生誕 (Adventure Game Novel) on Amazon.co.jp)

Good thing about adventure books are everytime you die you end up re-reading previous pages, but it stays fresh can you can choose a new route.

zazen666 Wrote:Im a big fan of CYOA type books...

The first thing I thought of was "cover your (own) ass".

written on toilet paper, maybe?

I had the same first thought for CYOA.

btw, it exists: http://www.jbox.com/PRODUCT/TY400

Tobberoth Wrote:It's even true in your native language. When you run into a word you don't know, do you look it up? Do you ask for a definition? Probably not. You understand it from context and the conversation at hand. If it pops up in a text, there's no way you're going to leave the text and look it up. You'll read on, it will be mentioned again, and you'll get it. That is what you want to attain in japanese.

This reminds me of the time three or four years ago when I was reading something by Nietzsche--I think it was either in Beyond Good and Evil or On the Genealogy of Morals--and he made a comment about understanding a text. He said that most people completely ignore it when they don't understand something in a text, and even when they don't understand a lot of the words on the page. I don't remember exactly, but he goes onto explain why this was a problem (probably, because it's Nietzsche, whatever reason he gave was very pretentious).

Anyway, after that I started looking up every word in a text that I didn't understand--in my native tongue of course. It's very rewarding, and you'll realize very quickly that when you're reading something complex you very often assume the wrong meaning of a word if you go by context alone. It might not be true with fiction, but with non-fiction I'd highly recommend trying this.

As for how I do it in Japanese, I do both. I have books and manga that I read through looking up practically all the words I don't understand, and I have books and manga where I never look up anything. I even do it with games--I am playing through FFVII looking up every word, but I'm playing through Xenogears looking up almost nothing. Both just practice different skills, for me anyway.

Contrary to what some people think, there's no wrong answer. It's what's FUN for YOU.

I tried skipping over words I didn't know and took notes, and got thoroughly bored and confused within 10 pages. If I wanted to take notes and feel confused, I'd go to class instead.

I don't see the point of rushing through a book, only to miss half of it. It may take longer to read it, but I don't miss important things... like people dying, breaking up, whatever.

I prefer to just read a book once, understand it, and move on.

I believe that one should do both as well.
Also doing this with video games, I mine sentences from Chrono Cross where there is one point I am not clear on, but with all my other games I play straight through without looking anything up. The reason is, the former is not very fun, while the latter, once you get used to it, is.
I have played Chrono Cross at least 18 times over in English so I already am past the stage where I'll really have fun playing it again, but I do remember enjoying it in the past. So just having the sentences around will spark those memories and make reviewing fun later on. (Also, there are about 40 different playable characters with their own unique speaking styles.)