Ahibba, Musashi is playing the negative troll in this thread, which makes his posts seem funnier once I realized he's not serious. You can actually offer reasonable explanations and he'll bad mouth it.

Here's the main flaw with the entire "Pass JLPT 1 in 3 months" and Musashi and others point it out: Starting from where? If you don't define that, the trolls and haters are just going to say what you did didn't count cause you already did X.

Similar arguments happened 2 years ago on TJP forums with Heisig and RTK. They wanted this mythical creature with ZERO knowledge of Japanese to start with Heisig or something similar then go on to fluency. Heisig didn't count cause he lived in Japan when he started. Khatzumoto did not count cause he took Chinese for a bit. I didn't count cause 10 years prior I got a B in a 8 week Japanese 101 class. Etc., etc., etc.

It's very unlikely to find a person to use methods discussed in these forums that has zero knowledge of the language. Plus, does the time spent learning Kanji like those on these forums count? We're not learning Japanese with RTK method (Japanese Keywords is a variant, not the rule). I would argue that that time should not count in the time frame restrictions of this mythical test.

Then comes the next problem: What is fluency. Fortunately, this thread avoids the issue by instead asking about passing the JLPT 1. Now, one can pass the JLPT 1 and not be fluent, but you still have to have a working knowledge of Japanese. With that, it's a fair benchmark though I personally can't stand the test.

Next comes the 3 months question. How about this: Can the JLPT 1 be passed with only 1000 hours of studying. Think about it: 90 days, 12 hours per day is 1080 hours. One assumes that those 1000 hours are active studying, not passive pleasure. I've been doing this for 2 years and I'm not up to 1000 hours (by my calculation).

One can fit 1000 hours of study in 3 months. Defense Language Institute for the US Military does it. But it's a full time job which pretty much means you're have some other means of support. I have a job, others have jobs, others have college, others have other commitments in life.

But anyway, had the thread question been "Can someone with 1000 hours of studying pass the JLPT 1?" From there, the thread would have talked about what type of studying should those 1000 hours include and how many hours per day that studying can allow. A natural consequence would be someone could argue 3 months is a difficult but possible achievement, but one of little necessity.

Quote:But anyway, had the thread question been "Can someone with 1000 hours of studying pass the JLPT 1?" From there, the thread would have talked about what type of studying should those 1000 hours include and how many hours per day that studying can allow. A natural consequence would be someone could argue 3 months is a difficult but possible achievement, but one of little necessity.

Before adding sentences to my SRS I usually use vocab lists to memorize any new words. I usually learn 14 words in under 5 minutes this way. 10,000 words would therefore take 60 hours to go through in this way.

That's quick; but that part is only for initially learning, and it also takes SRS reviews to retain them. Assuming 15 seconds per review, SRSing 10,000 sentences, 6 repetitions each, totals 250 hours.

If you were extremely extremely strong at doing this activity straight for hours on end
then maybe, just possibly there's a chance it could be done. There's no way I could keep my concentration.

The real killer is that setting up 10,000 good sentences takes hundreds of hours by itself.

Hehe, ok ok, I haven't been really positive to ahibba, but like I said, don't take everything we write too seriously, you know what's best for you and you can decide this for yourself. We're cool right? But props to you for firmly believing in it.

To Ahibba, I would love to know this methos of learning the readings quickly, or is it the method you explained earlier regarding fiiting in vicab you already know to match the kanji in question? i think that is what everyone on this site is trying to do in many different ways. My active vocab level is around 2,000 words and passive is around 3,000.

As I understand it , the L-R method involves these steps,

1) Read a long novel in your native language that you enjoy very much. For German, lets say Glass Bead Game by Hesse.

2) Get an audiobook of Glass Bead Game and the novel both in the origonal German. I listen to the audiobook and follow along for the whole book.

3) Repeat step two a couple of times.

4) Listen to the audiobook and the English translation together, this is when you start learning a lot.

5) Start shadowing the sentences from the audiobook.

In order to achieve this, step two must be done smoothly with complete concentration on listening and following the narrator and reading. That is why it is not possible in Japanese, until you are able to read all the kanji that is. Once you can read all the kanji you don't need this kind of system anyway.

I've never tried this method but I think i'll give it a go with German at some time in the future. Also, I can't see any romanj texts out there anyway (full novels I mean).

Nukemarine Wrote:Can the JLPT 1 be passed with only 1000 hours of studying.

The official estimation says that you need about 900 hours to pass JLPT 1.

Nukemarine Wrote:One can fit 1000 hours of study in 3 months. Defense Language Institute for the US Military does it. But it's a full time job which pretty much means you're have some other means of support. I have a job, others have jobs, others have college, others have other commitments in life.

My question did not limit the answer to those who are tied with job, college, etc. even if they are the majority.

In September, I will dedicate all my time to study and I will be entirely engaged in learning the language. So it's not impossible that I can reach that level after 3 months.

kyotokanji Wrote:As I understand it , the L-R method involves these steps,....

These steps are for increasing listening comprehension. For other skills, you should listen to the English audiobook while reading the Japanese text.

Anyway, this technique will work for all languages, not just Japanese. By reading the Japanese text and listening to what you obviously understand (which is English), you will be able to pick up easily new vocabulary and in context too, and you will understand the most complicated grammar points easily.

This is totally different to the way most people learn languages using L-R (or learning through subtitles). Usually, they listen to the Japanese audio with English text. But often, it is really difficult to clearly hear what is being spoken because it is spoken quickly, and sometimes colloquially with slang. But listening to your own native language being spoken instead is very easy.

You say that you will "give it a go with German at some time in the future". Until that time comes, try to watch English movies with German subtitles. You will be amazed at your ability to understand German! Try it with as much movies as you can. (7-10 and repeat them 3 times at least.)

When you see the benefit of this method, try it with Japanese subtitles. For fast reading, convert the kanji to romaji using nihongo.j-talk.com or the likes. Yes, in the first time you need to listen to the audio once to correct the wrong reading made by those kanji converters, but this will not take much time. Usually most of the conversion will be OK. You need to correct less than %15.

When you succeed, apply it to long novels. Remember, for listening comprehension, listen to the Japanese audio and read the English text. For other skills and better results, listen to the ENGLISH AUDIO and read the Japanese text (romaji for fast reading.)

Believe me, there is no harm in using romaji, and it will not affect your ability to read the kanji.

Vietnamese used to be written in Chinese characters, now it is written using the latin script. Japanese is no different. You can read it in any system you like. The earliest Western visitors to Japan did the same thing. They created phonetic systems desgined for speakers of specific languages (Dutch, Portugues, German, English).

Try it, you will not lose anything.

ahibba Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:Can the JLPT 1 be passed with only 1000 hours of studying.

The official estimation says that you need about 900 hours to pass JLPT 1.

Trouble is that the official estimate is based on self-reported numbers from test-takers. I think the longer you study the language, the harder it becomes to give a realistic estimate of the time you've spent. Also, many, many test-takers are Korean or Chinese. (see http://www.jlpt.jp/j/about/pdf/2008_05.pdf for numbers). Relative to speakers of languages from outside of East Asia, Koreans have a huge advantage in grammar, vocabulary, and listening comprehension, plus a smaller advantage in kanji. Chinese have a big advantage in kanji and vocabulary.

But may we all pass sooner or later. I'm taking it on Sunday.

ahibba Wrote:When you see the benefit of this method, try it with Japanese subtitles. For fast reading, convert the kanji to romaji using nihongo.j-talk.com or the likes. Yes, in the first time you need to listen to the audio once to correct the wrong reading made by those kanji converters, but this will not take much time. Usually most of the conversion will be OK. You need to correct less than %15.

I just tried watching a few episodes of Heroes with Japanese subs. Just gave me a big headache (or maybe that was the afternoon nap).

I find it interesting, though I wonder this will even help now.

Do you read kanji fast?

If you don't, it is not a good idea to read them while listening to the fast spoken English.

ahibba Wrote:Do you read kanji fast?

If you don't, it is not a good idea to read them while listening to the fast spoken English.

If I can read the kanji then speed is not a factor. The ones I know, I know very well. Katakana is the only real problem. The show is hard subbed so.... anyone know where you can get Japanese soft subs for English shows.

Edit: I'm loving how repetitive this show is!

Yes, you quickly assemble vocab for many commonly used phrases that are repeated over and over during the course of the show which really helps to reinforce the learning. There is no rote learning or assembling wordlists required at all. And because 70% of any conversation is formed with the 1,000 most common words, you can quickly be well on your way to getting the gist of almost any conversation.

Why you need soft subs?

Its annoying when people submit their" I learned X kanji or vocab in y time so i should get to Z by this point"

there is something called the law of diminishing marginal returns that needs to be taken into account.

If you are already trying as hard as you possibly can to learn something, as information piles up, you will necessarily become unable to maintain those initial high study/return rates.

I understand that there are freaks of nature out there (see crazy fools studying pie to a zillion points) - that is however the exception and not the rule

ahibba Wrote:Yes, you quickly *** *** for many commonly used *** that are *** over and over during the *** of the *** which really helps to *** the ***.

Here, you have 72.4% of the words left. Is it easy to get the gist of what's being said? And off course it's a lot easier to guess with a language that you know well than with a language that you're just beginning to learn.

Understanding 70% is useless, the most common words are the glue that make everything fit together, not the words that carry the most meaning

I am very interested to see how ahibba's plan pans out...

Btw, Ahibba, what/how exactly have you been studying all this time? Just listening? reading romaji?
How much do you know already?

Do you think that 70% can be understood with just 1000 words? Every language varies on how many words are needed to understand 70-80% of words used in daily conversation. I cetainly cannot understand 70% of what's on TV etc and I know far more than 1,000 words.

Codexus Wrote:Understanding 70% is useless, the most common words are the glue that make everything fit together, not the words that carry the most meaning

Yes, I know:

ahibba Wrote:Do you know that by just learning the 20 most common English words you will be able to recognize nearly 31% of the words in MacBeth!

But it does NOT mean that you can understand 1/3 of Macbeth, you will not understand anything!

You will not understand much if you know 70% or even 90% of the words, but using the method above (i.e. watching English TV shows with Japanese subtitles), you will understand about 99% because English is your first language and you understand it very well, so you know the meaning of almost every Japanese word you encounter in the subtitle.

kyotokanji Wrote:Do you think that 70% can be understood with just 1000 words? Every language varies on how many words are needed to understand 70-80% of words used in daily conversation. I cetainly cannot understand 70% of what's on TV etc and I know far more than 1,000 words.

See my reply to Codexus above. With that method you will not understand 70% only, you will understand 99% of what is being spoken.

nadiatims Wrote:Btw, Ahibba, what/how exactly have you been studying all this time? Just listening? reading romaji?
How much do you know already?

I have not started studying Japanese yet. But I have experience with other languages.

One must clearly define his goal, is it the spoken language should be learned first, or the written one?

We should trace how people developed language. Before written history, we had oral history. Most people, even kings, couldn't write or read in ancient times. Some people can't even read today. Most language learning systems fail to acknowledge that writing only exists to represent the words we speak. So one should ask himself, "Why should I learn to read Japanese if I can't even speak it?."

ahibba Wrote:

Codexus Wrote:Understanding 70% is useless, the most common words are the glue that make everything fit together, not the words that carry the most meaning

Yes, I know:

ahibba Wrote:Do you know that by just learning the 20 most common English words you will be able to recognize nearly 31% of the words in MacBeth!

But it does NOT mean that you can understand 1/3 of Macbeth, you will not understand anything!

You will not understand much if you know 70% or even 90% of the words, but using the method above (i.e. watching English TV shows with Japanese subtitles), you will understand about 99% because English is your first language and you understand it very well, so you know the meaning of almost every Japanese word you encounter in the subtitle.

The problem with that is, unlike most European languages, Japanese subtitles don't match up 1:1 with what is said in English. In some cases the Japanese and English is unrelated. I've talked to Japanese translators and they told me there is a certain number of Kanji allowed per line. If what someone says in English takes to many Kanji in Japanese they just change it. On the other hand if someone says something that is complicated in English, but very short in Japanese they add words that aren't there. The example they gave me was "hello". If it's said quickly they might translate it "おはよう", but if they say "Heeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooo" then they translate it "おはようごさいます。お久しぶり。お元気ですか。, even if none of those extra things were said. Not to rain on your parade, but there are a lot of potential flaws to this method for learning Japanese.

Chandlerhimself Wrote:Japanese subtitles don't match up 1:1 with what is said in English.

This is not restricted to Japanese, it's the same thing in most languages I think.

I applied this method with languages unrelated to Indo-European family (not even the Nostratic/Eurasiatic family which includes English and Japanese), and the results were very satisfying.

ahibba Wrote:

Chandlerhimself Wrote:Japanese subtitles don't match up 1:1 with what is said in English.

This is not restricted to Japanese, it's the same thing in most languages I think.

I sometimes Spanish movies here in Dublin and since I developed a habit of reading subtitles as a kid in Portugal, I tend to read them and am amazed at the amount of mistakes the translators make. One would think big productions, like Almodovar or Amenabar movies, produced by Miramax (e.g. The Others, with Tom Cruise as executive producer ) would have accurate subtitles.

ahibba Wrote:I have not started studying Japanese yet. But I have experience with other languages.

In the "Post Your Recent Milestone" thread, you said

"1. I added 1423 words to my vocabulary in the last two weeks.

2. I finished translating a movie from Japanese into one of the languages I speak. It took me more than three years!"

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...0#pid58300

In this thread you say you haven't started studying Japanese yet. Honestly, I don't mean to give you a hard time but I don't understand what you are saying.

kioku3 Wrote:

ahibba Wrote:I have not started studying Japanese yet. But I have experience with other languages.

In the "Post Your Recent Milestone" thread, you said

"1. I added 1423 words to my vocabulary in the last two weeks.

2. I finished translating a movie from Japanese into one of the languages I speak. It took me more than three years!"

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...0#pid58300

In this thread you say you haven't started studying Japanese yet. Honestly, I don't mean to give you a hard time but I don't understand what you are saying.

It was already obvious that he DID indeed has been studying. Only in September he's gonna start "for real". Lol, nice observation Kioku.

ahibba Wrote:2. I finished translating a movie from Japanese into one of the languages I speak. It took me more than three years!

And I think for someone saying he's about to start 'from scratch', translating a movie that you started 3 YEARS ago isn't really called 'starting from scratch' is it now? 嘘つき~~~♪

kioku3 Wrote:Honestly, I don't mean to give you a hard time but I don't understand what you are saying.

Don't worry, it's easy to explain

kioku3 Wrote:In the "Post Your Recent Milestone" thread, you said

"1. I added 1423 words to my vocabulary in the last two weeks.

Was that thread restricted to the milestones in learning Japanese only?

If so, Aijin would not say "I finished both Ulysses and War and Peace this week".

Did I say that those words were Japanese?

kioku3 Wrote:2. I finished translating a movie from Japanese into one of the languages I speak. It took me more than three years!"

If one studied Japanese to a level make him able to translate, would he need 3 years to translate a single movie?!

It was a movie, and I translate it using a similar method that Pedro Carolino (who did not speak English) used in his book English as She Is Spoke.

If it was a book, no one would be able to understand my translation... unless they understand English as She Is Spoke!


Last, did I say in this thread (or elsewhere) that I will start from scratch?

In reply #294 in this thread I answered vosmiura when she asked the same question:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...6#pid59186

ahibba Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:So, you're not exactly going to start from zero in September then?

Of course not. I know that watashi = I, ringo = apple, tabete = ate, etc. (In the first post I was not refering to myself.)

However, there is no big difference between my current level and starting from scratch.

Quote:Mark Twain said of English as She Is Spoke that "Nobody can add to the absurdity of this book, nobody can imitate it successfully, nobody can hope to produce its fellow; it is perfect."[1]

Guess Mark Twain never read any Engrish before. やっぱり

ahibba Wrote:

kioku3 Wrote:Honestly, I don't mean to give you a hard time but I don't understand what you are saying.

Don't worry, it's easy to explain

kioku3 Wrote:In the "Post Your Recent Milestone" thread, you said

"1. I added 1423 words to my vocabulary in the last two weeks.

Was that thread restricted to the milestones in learning Japanese only?

If so, Aijin would not say "I finished both Ulysses and War and Peace this week".

Did I say that those words were Japanese?

kioku3 Wrote:2. I finished translating a movie from Japanese into one of the languages I speak. It took me more than three years!"

If one studied Japanese to a level make him able to translate, would he need 3 years to translate a single movie?!

It was a movie, and I translate it using a similar method that Pedro Carolino (who did not speak English) used in his book English as She Is Spoke.

If it was a book, no one would be able to understand my translation... unless they understand English as She Is Spoke!


Last, did I say in this thread (or elsewhere) that I will start from scratch?

In reply #294 in this thread I answered vosmiura when she asked the same question:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...6#pid59186

ahibba Wrote:

vosmiura Wrote:So, you're not exactly going to start from zero in September then?

Of course not. I know that watashi = I, ringo = apple, tabete = ate, etc. (In the first post I was not refering to myself.)

However, there is no big difference between my current level and starting from scratch.

You sure know how to twist and turn it, I give you props for that, as for the previous props... I'd have to take those back It's OK if you don't wanna admit it, now let's close this thread.