Musashi Wrote:Right...! Ur just orienting... uhu

You can say that.

TGWeaver Wrote:how about you stop thinking, start doing, and get back to us in 3 months?

I'm going to start real studying in September. I will stay at home till the end of the year.

kazelee Wrote:Some more realistic examples: かいだん、だんかい、がいがん、がんかい、たいこ、こたい、こうたい、たいこう、がんたい、たいかい、がいこう、こうかい.

(@_@)

I think there are over 200 kanji with the reading こう. Some have similar meaning, but a lot don't.

I don't see any problem in these realistic examples!

ahibba Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Some more realistic examples: かいだん、だんかい、がいがん、がんかい、たいこ、こたい、こうたい、たいこう、がんたい、たいかい、がいこう、こうかい.

(@_@)

I think there are over 200 kanji with the reading こう. Some have similar meaning, but a lot don't.

I don't see any problem in these realistic examples!

Most of those words have more than one meaning (one is even made up), which means that without context you'd have no idea what I was talking about. Is かいだん　階段　or 会談.

Also, I don't think 3 months is time enough to sort these words out without confusing them. It took a while before I could tell 階段 from 段階. Add to that the fact that the test intentionally tries to trick you and these examples speak volumes. These aren't even the tip of the iceberg, either.

kazelee Wrote:Most of those words have more than one meaning (one is even made up), which means that without context you'd have no idea what I was talking about. Is かいだん　階段　or 会談.

I know, but even in English there are similar things.

For example, there are about 40 meaning for the word "get" alone! not to mention the phrasal verbs "get ahead, get off, get away, get by, etc." (between 24 to 68 different meanings and uses!)

It's even worse in my own language!

I usually learn words with example sentences.

ahibba Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:Most of those words have more than one meaning (one is even made up), which means that without context you'd have no idea what I was talking about. Is かいだん　階段　or 会談.

I know, but even in English there are similar things.

For example, there are about 40 meaning for the word "get" alone! not to mention the phrasal verbs "get ahead, get off, get away, get by, etc." (between 24 to 68 different meanings and uses!)

It's even worse in my own language!

I am not Aijin. Though I hear he's a she like the opposite of me.

All languages have these weird verb compounds and idioms and such. Japanese has 付き合う and 着き合う for example (or anything with つく). At least in English they sound different. Difference in sounds means more variation. Variation makes it a bit easier to recognize.

ahibba Wrote:I usually learn words with example sentences.

That's good, however, to learn words like these you'd need multiple example sentences to help clarify their meanings.

Not saying Japanese is impossible (we're all learning), just, JLPT1 in 3 months is a feat that I'd love to see. You can type as many counter arguments about this and that language as you'd like, those languages aren't Japanese.

kazelee Wrote:Not saying Japanese is impossible (we're all learning), just, JLPT1 in 3 months is a feat that I'd love to see. You can type as many counter arguments about this and that language as you'd like, those languages aren't Japanese

Sorry for misquoting you.

I think Japanese is your first non-European language.

Have you tried learning Malay/Indonesian or Turkish?

ahibba Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Not saying Japanese is impossible (we're all learning), just, JLPT1 in 3 months is a feat that I'd love to see. You can type as many counter arguments about this and that language as you'd like, those languages aren't Japanese

Sorry for misquoting you.

I think Japanese is your first non-European language.

Have you tried learning Malay/Indonesian or Turkish?

So ur also fluent in these languages also after 3 months? :O
羨ましい〜！

ahibba Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Not saying Japanese is impossible (we're all learning), just, JLPT1 in 3 months is a feat that I'd love to see. You can type as many counter arguments about this and that language as you'd like, those languages aren't Japanese

Sorry for misquoting you.

I think Japanese is your first non-European language.

Have you tried learning Malay/Indonesian or Turkish?

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting this, but are you trying to say that Malay/Indonesian are difficult to learn for an English speaker?

If so...I couldn't disagree more. I learned Indonesian for 5 years and I'd have to say its probably one of the easier languages an English speaker could approach. It utilises the same alphabet (unlike Japanese) and the grammar is relatively easy to pick up.

EDIT: Oops sorry I meant to quote ahibba. Fixed.

blackmacros Wrote:

ahibba Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Not saying Japanese is impossible (we're all learning), just, JLPT1 in 3 months is a feat that I'd love to see. You can type as many counter arguments about this and that language as you'd like, those languages aren't Japanese

Sorry for misquoting you.

I think Japanese is your first non-European language.

Have you tried learning Malay/Indonesian or Turkish?

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting this, but are you trying to say that Malay/Indonesian are difficult to learn for an English speaker?

If so...I couldn't disagree more. I learned Indonesian for 5 years and I'd have to say its probably one of the easier languages an English speaker could approach. It utilises the same alphabet (unlike Japanese) and the grammar is relatively easy to pick up.

EDIT: Oops sorry I meant to quote ahibba. Fixed.

I guess yea he's trying to say that, he's trolling.

Apparently Turkish is: "Arguably the easiest of Asian languages."

However if you understand it's SOV grammar it may be easier to pick up Japanese grammar. After all Japanese grammar is not very complex, it's just very different from English. Won't help you with the vocab & way of thinking much though.

blackmacros Wrote:but are you trying to say that Malay/Indonesian are difficult to learn for an English speaker?

vosmiura Wrote:Apparently Turkish is: "Arguably the easiest of Asian languages."

No. I'm talking about this:

"Some more realistic examples: かいだん、だんかい、がいがん、がんかい、たいこ、こたい、こうたい、たいこう、がんたい、たいかい、がいこう、こうかい. "

He says that the few sounds of Japanese make it difficult to recoginze words.

I told him that this apply to many other languages like Turkic languages and Austronesian languages.

ahibba Wrote:

blackmacros Wrote:but are you trying to say that Malay/Indonesian are difficult to learn for an English speaker?

vosmiura Wrote:Apparently Turkish is: "Arguably the easiest of Asian languages."

No. I'm talking about this:

"Some more realistic examples: かいだん、だんかい、がいがん、がんかい、たいこ、こたい、こうたい、たいこう、がんたい、たいかい、がいこう、こうかい. "

He says that the few sounds of Japanese make it difficult to recoginze words.

I told him that this apply to many other languages like Turkic languages and Austronesian languages.

Yeah... you might wanna be a little more clear on that sort of thing. Your post seemed a little... off.

You keep forgetting the most important part of the arguments on this thread though. With enough time any difficulties in any language can be ironed out. 3 months just isn't enough time (useless you are absurdly gifted). There's wishful thinking and then there is delusional.

BTW I've studied both Mandarin and Korean, though not even close to as in depth as I've studied Japanese.

Wait until I start in September.

If you can't wait, check the blog of this guy who is going to learn Czech language to fluency in just 3 months:

http://www.fluentin3months.com/how-to-be...-3-months/

Czech is harder than Japanese. The phonology of Czech is very difficult. For example, some words do not appear to have vowels: zmrzl (frozen solid), ztvrdl (hardened), scvrkl (shrunk), čtvrthrst (quarter-handful), blb (fool), vlk (wolf), or smrt (death).

Example phrases: "strč prst skrz krk", "Smrž pln skvrn zvlhl z mlh."

It also has a very complex grammar system.

@ahibba

He mentions a guy called Daniel Tammet in his post who learned Icelandic in 1 week :o

Here's the relevant video from youtube. Of course they reckon there's less than 50 people like him in the entire world.

ahibba Wrote:Wait until I start in September.

So Sept 08 to Sept 09 is just preparation?

Quote:If you can't wait, check the blog of this guy who is going to learn Czech language to fluency in just 3 months:

These comparisons are kind of pointless. But I suppose every subculture has its quirks, including the The Polyglot Club.

That Mr Tammet appears to have become a bit of a circus act (e.g. reciting pi to tens of thousands of digits for hours on end and learning Icelandic, all while the cameras roll.) I can't help but feel a tinge of shame on behalf of our society.

ahibba Wrote:Wait until I start in September.

Why don't you sign up for JPLT1 while you're at it? It might be at the end of the years but 7 months makes that 3 month mark all the more plausible, and it would be freaking phenomenal.

So, that's 2000 Kanji plus on and kun readings, advanced level grammar, and 8000-1000 vocabulary words and faculty do distinguish them all by ear and context. Distractors aside, this alone is an insane feat, and I wish you luck on it.

ahibba Wrote:If you can't wait, check the blog of this guy who is going to learn Czech language to fluency in just 3 months:

http://www.fluentin3months.com/how-to-be...-3-months/

By his definition of fluency I'm at or near fluent... in Korean. JK. I was having typed conversations in Japanese after 3 months, but was no where near JLPT1. Again, hats off if you can get there. I'm actually rooting for you. You should be put in Guinness if you do it.

ahibba Wrote:Czech is harder than Japanese. The phonology of Czech is very difficult. For example, some words do not appear to have vowels: zmrzl (frozen solid), ztvrdl (hardened), scvrkl (shrunk), čtvrthrst (quarter-handful), blb (fool), vlk (wolf), or smrt (death).

Example phrases: "strč prst skrz krk", "Smrž pln skvrn zvlhl z mlh."

It also has a very complex grammar system.

strč prst skrz krk", "Smrž pln skvrn zvlhl z mlh.

弁護士は 基本的人権を擁護し, 社会正義を実現することを 使命とする。

Hmmm. この2つの文の違いは何ですか？先行の文も？

Kanji is difference between having a conversation and passing JLPT1.

Languages which skip vowels are called abjad, and there are tons of them. From what I hear, it really doesn't complicate the languages much at all.. in fact, I've heard it actually simplifies them, less to think about.

ahibba Wrote:Wait until I start in September.

And then what??
Lord of the Rings called, they're missing a troll!
(always wanted to say that but couldn't find an opportunity )

Thora Wrote:

ahibba Wrote:Wait until I start in September.

So Sept 08 to Sept 09 is just preparation?

I was about to say too.

I don't believe it's trolling - the ideas and intentions seem sincere. There appears to be a community of language speed learners and language collectors out there who simply have a different mindset. Also, Ahibba's English is excellent, so it's easy to forget he's not a native speaker. Tone can be easily misinterpreted in such cases. This might also explain why he occasionally doesn't appear to completely absorb the messages of others.

Thora Wrote:I don't believe it's trolling - the ideas and intentions seem sincere. There appears to be a community of language speed learners and language collectors out there who simply have a different mindset. Also, Ahibba's English is excellent, so it's easy to forget he's not a native speaker. Tone can be easily misinterpreted in such cases. This might also explain why he occasionally doesn't appear to completely absorb the messages of others.

Nice attempt at trolling, Thora, but we're on to you and your irrational, hot-headed comments.

Tobberoth Wrote:Languages which skip vowels are called abjad, and there are tons of them. From what I hear, it really doesn't complicate the languages much at all.. in fact, I've heard it actually simplifies them, less to think about.

You've heard wrong. I lost my Arabic since I came to Australia after the Gulf War in 91'. I have been trying to learn it again, every darn book which aims to teach it skips the vowels. My parents read it fine, but I'm sitting there running through all the possibilities of one word
is it
hello
hillo
helli
hille
hallo
hilla
and so on

as you can see with 6 vowels there are crap loads of permutations. Of course only a few of these are actual words, but how am I meant to know that, it's something I have to know beforehand.

So you have to learn Arabic from the start, that is, with vowels in place which makes it perfectly fine. Then once those word shapes are stored and you become confident with them you'll be able to read it without the vowel markers.

It all works out in the end. I personally hate the fact that they do it as it looks beautiful with the vowel markings and it makes things a billion times hard for beginners as explained above.

But in proper texts such as the Quran the vowel markings are there, but then you have Quranic grammar is a whole subject of study in its own right.

Who's talking about learning a language in one week like Daniel Tammet?

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it will consume your time, and not everyone can do it.

On the other hand, learning a language in 3 months is a normal thing. Don't you know about Hugo series "Learn X In 3 Months"?

Yes, Hugo courses do not take you to fluency, because they're targeted to lazy learners, but hard working people can reach high levels in any language within 3 months, whether they learn the spoken language or the written one.

You remind me of those who attack siomotteikiru/atamagii/aya/turaisiawae/Phi Stazek in HTLAL when she told them that she can learn languages in 10 days only using L-R method.

liosama, are you Lebanese?

ahibba Wrote:liosama, are you Lebanese?

I'm Palestinian^^

ahibba Wrote:Who's talking about learning a language in one week like Daniel Tammet?

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it will consume your time, and not everyone can do it.

On the other hand, learning a language in 3 months is a normal thing. Don't you know about Hugo series "Learn X In 3 Months"?

Yes, Hugo courses do not take you to fluency, because they're targeted to lazy learners, but hard working people can reach high levels in any language within 3 months, whether they learn the spoken language or the written one.

You remind me of those who attack siomotteikiru/atamagii/aya/turaisiawae/Phi Stazek in HTLAL when she told them that she can learn languages in 10 days only using L-R method.

OMG, you ARE really confident that that is gonna happen to you right? I don't know what your definition of 'reaching a high level learning a language in 3 months' is but ur optimism almost makes me believe it's real. (not) But we're all waiting for you to 'start' in September.
How about less talk and more action?

I can't be bothered reading this whole thread, but I don't see the point in discouraging someone.
I think it's definately possible to learn a language to a reasonable level in 3 months. I think a 'smart' learner should in theory be able to work out exactly what it is they need to know and figure out the most efficient way to internalise it through drills etc. I know for a fact that if I were to start studying another language now, I could get to the point my japanese is at now in probably less than a year, simply by bypassing all the unimportant crap and studying efficiently. No doubt if I learn more languages I'll acumulate more tricks and have an even better idea of what material can(or should) be learned and in what way and in which order. I don't really buy into the learn through osmosis idea. The idea that everything (vocab/grammar/etc) should just be learned by absorbing it from your environment. That process is extremely slow until you're already at a reasonably high level. I think there are tricks for learning different things, grammar, different types of words (verbs, names, adjectives etc), writing and so on that can be used to progress rapidly through the initial stage of complete suckage. The problem is that most people (myself included) don't know what these methods are until after they've already tried a whole bunch of crappy techniques.

nadiatims Wrote:I can't be bothered reading this whole thread, but I don't see the point in discouraging someone.
I think it's definately possible to learn a language to a reasonable level in 3 months. I think a 'smart' learner should in theory be able to work out exactly what it is they need to know and figure out the most efficient way to internalise it through drills etc. I know for a fact that if I were to start studying another language now, I could get to the point my japanese is at now in probably less than a year, simply by bypassing all the unimportant crap and studying efficiently. No doubt if I learn more languages I'll acumulate more tricks and have an even better idea of what material can(or should) be learned and in what way and in which order. I don't really buy into the learn through osmosis idea. The idea that everything (vocab/grammar/etc) should just be learned by absorbing it from your environment. That process is extremely slow until you're already at a reasonably high level. I think there are tricks for learning different things, grammar, different types of words (verbs, names, adjectives etc), writing and so on that can be used to progress rapidly through the initial stage of complete suckage. The problem is that most people (myself included) don't know what these methods are until after they've already tried a whole bunch of crappy techniques.

Not to bust your bubble, but that's just crap. (sorry for saying it so rude) What is a 'reasonable level' to you? Wake up and smell the coffee and be realistic, if 'smart' people would have found that special way of learning then they would've made BIG bucks out of that method and tons of people would be 'hey I just learned a new language in 3 months using mr. X's method'. You said that you know for a fact that you can learn a new language in less than a year to the point where your Japanese is, now I don't know what your Japanese level is, but that's in about less than a YEAR, not 3 months. How long did it took for you to learn your own mother tongue? I BET that ain't 3 months now is it. Don't try to chase unrealistic goals and look at it with common sense. Unless you have an IQ of 300²...
(ok that was quite a discouraging post, だから力いっぱい入れて頑張りましょう！)