jmkeralis Wrote:As I'm nearing the end of RTK1 and am looking for sentence-mining sources, I stumbled on this thread. I'll probably mine from Genki and KO2001 to start, but I was thinking about mining from manga afterwards...and now I'm under the impression that some people think it's a bad idea. Am I correct in thinking that manga-language is kind of like English from American comic books or graphic novels? I've never read it before, so I'm in the dark here.

A few of our seasoned veterans have weighed in, but I'd be curious to hear from a Japanese perspective. What do our native speakers think? I wouldn't mine ONLY from manga, but is it okay to mix it in with sentences from other sources, like Yomiuri? Or should we stick to "proper sentence" sources?

Manga language tends to be simpler and slang-ier, just like American comics. Also, it's all speech only, just like American comics I find it to be good practice for reading Japanese, and maybe picking up some new words, but I would not try to sentence mine it.

(For the record, I have not yet started mining sentences. I'm probably going to wait until I can read novels for that, which should be a -lot- better place to pick up sentences... but honestly, when I can get to the point that I -can- go i+1 with sentences, I'll probably be better off just reading for fun and picking up vocabulary as I go, just like I've done for English most of my life.)

Sentences in novels surely have a higher probability of being "correct", but that doesn't mean that through them you will learn good "spoken" Japanese. Literature uses a different form of language from the everyday one. You will sound just as weird if you start using である and the like in your conversations.
So the conclusion is always the same: one type source will always be very specific, so you'll need many of them to get an "objective education".

wccrawford Wrote:

jmkeralis Wrote:As I'm nearing the end of RTK1 and am looking for sentence-mining sources, I stumbled on this thread. I'll probably mine from Genki and KO2001 to start, but I was thinking about mining from manga afterwards...and now I'm under the impression that some people think it's a bad idea. Am I correct in thinking that manga-language is kind of like English from American comic books or graphic novels? I've never read it before, so I'm in the dark here.

A few of our seasoned veterans have weighed in, but I'd be curious to hear from a Japanese perspective. What do our native speakers think? I wouldn't mine ONLY from manga, but is it okay to mix it in with sentences from other sources, like Yomiuri? Or should we stick to "proper sentence" sources?

Manga language tends to be simpler and slang-ier, just like American comics. Also, it's all speech only, just like American comics I find it to be good practice for reading Japanese, and maybe picking up some new words, but I would not try to sentence mine it.

(For the record, I have not yet started mining sentences. I'm probably going to wait until I can read novels for that, which should be a -lot- better place to pick up sentences... but honestly, when I can get to the point that I -can- go i+1 with sentences, I'll probably be better off just reading for fun and picking up vocabulary as I go, just like I've done for English most of my life.)

Like you said, mining sentences once you can already read novels is probably too late. The sentences in novels will often be too long to be used in SRS anyway. Sentence mining should mainly be about learning words. Once you can already read good enough to understand most stuff from context, the need for it disappears. You should be using it now, waiting just makes it useless and probably slows you down a lot. Why wait until you don't need it anymore when you can use it now to get there faster?

I used to mine sentences from an electronic dictionary until my GF told me how stupid they sound. Be careful where you get your material. I would be especially cautious about mining from manga.

On a side note, the foreigner in my town before me was a huge anime/manga geek. He is still constantly ridiculed to this day by the teachers I speak to. Many people here seem to think that all young foreigners are geeks who are only interested in anime/manga. It's not any less nerdish to like that stuff here in Japan than it is in your own country so please, don't perpetuate the stereotype!

@slivir: Although I feel that way sometimes, overall I don't think it's a healthy attitude to take responsibility for the actions of all young foreigners. Everyone's different, and the extent to which JP people don't understand that is a shortcoming on their part, not on ours.

WRT Manga-mining, I think manga is an *excellent* tool for learning sentences. AJATTers know we need to keep the fun in it - and fun trumps usefulness because this is a long-term project that is supposed to be self-sustaining. The idea is that you'll get there eventually, but you're not taking the shortest or most efficient route, but rather the one most likely geared for success. But I will say that I understand manga BETTER because I hear the normal everyday stuff too. So I would add this twist - unless you understand the differences (which comes from being well-rounded in exposure) then you aren't really comprehending the manga, in which case you ought to be weary of adding sentences you don't comprehend entirely.

I really would not worry too much about mining your sentences from multiple sources.

By the time you have 10,000 sentences in your SRS, even if 100% is from manga, you are going to know the difference between what is normal and what isn't.

BTW, Khatzumoto changed "sentence mining" to "sentence picking". Just to highlight that the process is about cherry-picking your favorite sentences. As well as deleting sentences you don't like anymore.

slivir Wrote:It's not any less nerdish to like that stuff here in Japan than it is in your own country so please, don't perpetuate the stereotype!

Slivir, my understanding is that manga is a lot more mainstream in Japan than North America. In 2002, 38.1% of all books and magazines published were manga. The biggest weekly manga magazines get huge print runs of 4 million a week, and apparently it's not uncommon to see a middle aged business man on the train reading these weeklies, without being a nerd. It's a huge section of the entertainment industry in Japan, compared to comics in north america.

From wikipedia on manga: "a 481 billion yen market in Japan in 2006[9] (approximately $4.4 billion dollars)"

From google: "Comic book publishing was a $450 million market in 1996"

That's basically 10X the spending in a country half the size, works out to 20X more spend per person

Scuda, from my time in Japan I had the impression that manga is popular, but anime is not.

Nii87 Wrote:Scuda, from my time in Japan I had the impression that manga is popular, but anime is not.

Interesting.. I like manga better anyways

Jarvik7 Wrote:My best tip is: don't, unless you want to end up speaking like a manga.
By all means read manga for enjoyment or to improve reading comprehension and speed. By all means look up words you don't know and add dictionary sentences for them. But don't study manga sentences as-is.

It's not a vague possibility, I know a few people who sound like a manga/anime character and are constantly laughed at because of it.

This is the kind of assumption that I find pretty interesting to closely examinate .
Because if you re right it means you re able to notice what comes from manga ? right ? as for me when I say that newspaper does have a very characteristic style it implies that I m able to recognize it .

so would you take this challenge ? I provide sentences . Would you be able to tell which one comes from manga ?

N.B to make it clear I almost totally disagree with jarvik position . The manga IS NOT the counterpart of comicbook in US or "Bande Dessinee" in europe . While those latter are a kind of ghetto (it doesn t cover all the subject , the market and the companies are specific ) manga is widespread in japan population : all mainstream editor have a manga division with the well known age-sex groups , besides an extremely large array of thems and genres manga often fulfills an information purpose (ブラックジャックによろしく about the state of health service , キーチ! that tries to warn about social issues , 日本経済入門　which has been published in some mainstream european newspaper) when it s not blatant propaganda with ideologic purpose (biography of politics like the young days of noboru , negationist like ゴマニマス宣言 , US navy CVN73 ,etc.... ) .

ghinzdra Wrote:so would you take this challenge ? I provide sentences . Would you be able to tell which one comes from manga ?

THIS is awesome. Step up or step off.
What will it be Jarvik7?

Ghinzdra, would it be fair to say that if you do mine manga, mine from a variety of topics and genres? If the only manga mined were Naruto and One Piece (ALL OF THEM!!!!), then I think Jarvik's advice would be sound.

On topic of manga, mining from a variety of sources and genres sounds like the best advice. I don't recommend manga unless you're the type to re-read the same manga a lot. To me, it seems better to do a subs2srs of a manga's anime, rip audio from the anime.

Now you'll have Anki sentences which: let you watch the show with 90%+ comprehension, listen to iPod with 90%+ comprehension, and read the manga with 90%+ comprehension.

I'll find out the merit of this when I do Death Note episodes 1-3. I assume these mesh with the first manga (up to the bus scene). May take a couple of months till Death Note comes up in the rotation to tell the results.

Nukemarine Wrote:I'll find out the merit of this when I do Death Note episodes 1-3. I assume these mesh with the first manga (up to the bus scene). May take a couple of months till Death Note comes up in the rotation to tell the results.

I've got the first Death Note manga and it meshes pretty well (not 100% but close) with the first few episodes of the anime.

About avoiding manga and stuff, if your Japanese gets distorted by them, then I'd say it's just you're slacking off.

If you only read 5 books, 3 of which are manga, then you'd come out sounding like Naruto or something.

But if you read 500 books, 300 of which are manga, then you'll be able to tell which is manga-ish and which is normal. You'll be able to switch formality and whatnot back and forth. Of course you'll sound like a person who likes manga and stuff when having an informal conversation with your friends, but that's what you are if you read that much.

Why do I have to be what I am not just because I'm speaking a foreign language?

Just my 2 cents.

Nukemarine Wrote:Ghinzdra, would it be fair to say that if you do mine manga, mine from a variety of topics and genres? If the only manga mined were Naruto and One Piece (ALL OF THEM!!!!), then I think Jarvik's advice would be sound.

On topic of manga, mining from a variety of sources and genres sounds like the best advice. I don't recommend manga unless you're the type to re-read the same manga a lot. To me, it seems better to do a subs2srs of a manga's anime, rip audio from the anime.

Now you'll have Anki sentences which: let you watch the show with 90%+ comprehension, listen to iPod with 90%+ comprehension, and read the manga with 90%+ comprehension.

I'll find out the merit of this when I do Death Note episodes 1-3. I assume these mesh with the first manga (up to the bus scene). May take a couple of months till Death Note comes up in the rotation to tell the results.

I cannot but agree with your first proposition....obviously if you mine from onepiece and naruto your style will be severly crippled...

I also have to agree to your secund proposition : I prefer mining an anime because I can also ripp off the sound....I have 17 episodes of Fate stay night and 8 of Deathnote included in my deck and I have still a long way before me : princess mononoke, gunsliger girls , GIST SAC, etc... . Except sometimes you don t have the subtitles .... or there is a manga you really like which has not been made into an anime , or the anime departs from the original material or its stop earlier .

but jarvik proposition was far more general : reading manga is ok , mining manga is a mistake . Period .

N.B:While the direction is totally different , the script of the anime Deathnote is extremely close to the manga.

Thanks for the idea of mining the manga via the anime.
http://www1.atwiki.com/animetranscripts/ has a couple anime transcripts (they've done a lot of work on the Suzumiya episodes, I might just read that manga soon)