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Help! I'm in Japan!

#26
People who say you can't get anywhere in 2 months are lying. True, you can't with the pure AJATT way (since AJATT people are scared of output) but if you take real Japanese classes in Japan, you'll be speaking basic Japanese in 1 month. It will of course be very basic, but enough to get around.

Believe it or not, output needs training. If you're completely fluent in a language without having spoken it, of course you'll be able to, but if you're new to a language, you can't hope to actually speak it without training.

Unneeded output isn't good since you'll make mistakes but you're in Japan right now and you have a golden opportunity to speak a lot and you need to output japanese to enjoy yourself. So do. Just talk a lot. It doesn't matter if it's just single words at first, keep talking. Find people who don't mind pointing out errors and helping you, and in a week or two, you should speak basic Japanese just fine.
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#27
Babyrat Wrote:It must be a せみ I just cant imagine a bird making that sound. But then agian i youtubed it and none of the videos were as noisy as the ones i hear here.
yeah, cicadas are really, really noisy, especially en masse
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#28
*is thankful he was potty trained to use squat toilets* ^^ I hope I haven't forgot how though :o
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#29
Hahahaha i know that sound. I always assumed it was some sort of insect, based on how constant the noise is. Even birds take a rest at some point...
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#30
Tobberoth Wrote:People who say you can't get anywhere in 2 months are lying. True, you can't with the pure AJATT way (since AJATT people are scared of output) but if you take real Japanese classes in Japan, you'll be speaking basic Japanese in 1 month. It will of course be very basic, but enough to get around.
Would probably get farther just buying the textbook and shadowing other materials (like sentences from iKnow or... that shadowing book) with or without some sort of private tutor. If you're in a class where the majority of the people are silent and unenthusiastic (like most all classes), there is a chance you'll just follow suit.

If you are not a self-motivated type of person, go with classes, but also do shadowing to help develop a feel for the spoken language.
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#31
kazelee brings up another good advice, shadowing. This can definitely help you in a situation such as this since it makes you more comfortable when speaking.

I don't know about your classes though kazelee... when you're in a language institute in Japan studying, you'll be studying with enthusiastic people. After all, they are paying quite a bit to be there, and you generally do not go to another country and study a language if you're not enthusiastic.
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#32
Tobberoth Wrote:kazelee brings up another good advice, shadowing. This can definitely help you in a situation such as this since it makes you more comfortable when speaking.

I don't know about your classes though kazelee... when you're in a language institute in Japan studying, you'll be studying with enthusiastic people. After all, they are paying quite a bit to be there, and you generally do not go to another country and study a language if you're not enthusiastic.
Ah, money the great inspirer! LOL.
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#33
kazelee Wrote:
Tobberoth Wrote:kazelee brings up another good advice, shadowing. This can definitely help you in a situation such as this since it makes you more comfortable when speaking.

I don't know about your classes though kazelee... when you're in a language institute in Japan studying, you'll be studying with enthusiastic people. After all, they are paying quite a bit to be there, and you generally do not go to another country and study a language if you're not enthusiastic.
Ah, money the great inspirer! LOL.
I really wish this were true, but unfortunately it isn't. Things might different with different programs, but few of the students I was in Japan with were very motivated to learn Japanese. There were people who could barely order food at restaurants by the time they left, and they would argue with you about being able to speak Japanese. They'd constantly say stuff like, "You just think you're so much smarter than us or something. We know just as much as you do," but then they would refuse to go anywhere without one of our Japanese friends leading them. They were barely comfortable with Genki 2 material by the time they left, and they bitched, moaned, and complained whenever the teacher wanted to do something even a little bit difficult(or interesting) like reading from real Japanese sources and doing mock conversation exercises. Meanwhile, I was in their classes as well as in the intermediate classes. I passed JLPT2 before I left. My big souvenir from my time in Japan was my Japanese ability, there's was a giant kotatsu that cost more to ship back than it cost to buy.

Not all of the people were like this, but there were enough of them to make the 初級 classes really annoying. It was kind of split down the middle. About half the people really cared about learning Japanese, they were in the 中級 classes. The other half didn't care, were in the 初級 classes. Then there were the rapid climbers like me and another guy from my university who began the year in 初級, but ended the year taking both sets of classes. We were the only Americans in the 中級 class out of 7 of us from the US. All of the people from Australia, New Zealand, and Britain were in the 中級 classes.

I don't want to like badmouth Americans or anything, it could have easily been an issue of the kind of schools the Americans were from versus where everyone else was from. The non-Americans had to pass tests and stuff to be able to go to Japan in the first place. None of us Americans had to pass any tests to go, and because of this the majority of the people didn't use their time wisely while they were there. Sometimes money is just not a sufficient motivator, and it's difficult for money to motivate students if their parents are paying for it, or it's all coming from some enormous vat of money they're going to pay back over the next 25 years. For most students, it doesn't feel like its their money. It should be a motivator. I wish it was, but it doesn't seem to be in students.

The moral of the story is, don't be one of those people. You have time to study while you're in Japan that you would not have if you were home. You also have immersion everyday. Language learning will not work through sheer osmosis. I knew a Russian woman who'd lived in Japan for 10 years, and every year repeated one semester of beginner Japanese. Her attitude was horrible. She couldn't speak Japanese at all. She couldn't understand Japanese at all. The combination of studying hard, and taking advantage of the immersion will bring you a long way in a short amount of time. It's going to be hard work though.
Edited: 2009-05-27, 4:54 pm
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#34
You are American. They are American. What does this tell everyone about Americans?
Edited: 2009-05-27, 5:59 pm
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#35
erlog Wrote:...it's difficult for money to motivate students if their parents are paying for it...
This is the key point. You will rarely find unmotivated people who are paying their own way through education. And I mean actually paying, not just working a few hours a week for some extra spending money while all the bills are taken care of.
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#36
When I first went to Britain and stopped by a Burger King, I was like "ハンバーガー プリーズ" and they were like "I'm sorry? (hum bugger poo ree zoo? what the ??)" and I had to repeat that for 10 times or so to get a hamburger and chips. That was a mind altering experience. I knew I didn't speak English, but I didn't think English was THAT different.

I'd say just try to speak to them and interact with them and hit them in the face or whatever, as much as possible. Interaction is one thing you can never get out of a book or the TV. I wouldn't worry about what I could do or could not. I'd just try to get as much interaction as possible and worry about "studying" later. Fortunately Osaka is a perfect place for that. It is populous, and people there are the most talkative in Japan.

Hope you enjoy the stay.
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#37
"AJATT people are scared of output"

Uh... no.

"In order to have learned a sentence you need to be able to do 4 things:

1. Read it in full, aloud, with kanji, no furigana."

emphasis mine.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...tences-how

You might be thinking of his reference to antimoon, which says:

"If you're not sure how to say something, don't say it. If you can't say something correctly, it's almost always better not to say it. You don't want to teach yourself the wrong way to say it. You can try to look for the correct sentence in a dictionary or on the Web (see next point), but when speaking, usually you don't have time for that. So it's a good idea to say something else — something that you know is correct. It can even be something on a different subject. "

http://www.antimoon.com/how/mistakes-how.htm

It doesn't mean no output, it means don't knowingly speak broken Japanese just for the hell of it.

So what I'm saying is, if you put in basic conversation and stuff in your sentences right away, you could be using that part at least right away. Right now I'm reading "The Quick and Dirty Guide to Learning Languages" based on Khatzumoto's (AJATT) recommendations (being listed on his website) and it talks about learning a certain list of words and grammar to get you to a minimum functional level with a month.
Edited: 2009-05-28, 8:51 pm
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#38
For very-short term peeps I would recommend just rote learning Japanese For Busy People #1. It has a good deal of useful basics and doesn't waste time with grammar. Pimsleur is not so good IMO. It's more like a supplement. (plus the voices on CD's 2 and 3 were so annoying!)
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#39
masaman Wrote:When I first went to Britain and stopped by a Burger King, I was like "ハンバーガー プリーズ" and they were like "I'm sorry? (hum bugger poo ree zoo? what the ??)" and I had to repeat that for 10 times or so to get a hamburger and chips. That was a mind altering experience. I knew I didn't speak English, but I didn't think English was THAT different.
I have to repeat myself several times at Burger King. The people working there are as demotivated as it gets and will do whatever it takes to make your order as painful and prolonged as possible. I wouldn't consider it a failing of your English!

Regional accents & dialects are also a huge obstacle - I lived with someone for a year and could barely understand a word he said, even after nine months of talking to him every day. Unfortunately there's no way to learn how to understand a working class Londoner/Manc/Geordie/Scouser from a text book, you just have to get used to it.

The impression given of the UK is that everyone talks like the queen, but in reality almost everyone speaks broken, irregular and incorrect English. That's probably why most non-native speakers tend to learn American English rather than British English.
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#40
harhol Wrote:
masaman Wrote:When I first went to Britain and stopped by a Burger King, I was like "ハンバーガー プリーズ" and they were like "I'm sorry? (hum bugger poo ree zoo? what the ??)" and I had to repeat that for 10 times or so to get a hamburger and chips. That was a mind altering experience. I knew I didn't speak English, but I didn't think English was THAT different.
I have to repeat myself several times at Burger King. The people working there are as demotivated as it gets and will do whatever it takes to make your order as painful and prolonged as possible. I wouldn't consider it a failing of your English!

Regional accents & dialects are also a huge obstacle - I lived with someone for a year and could barely understand a word he said, even after nine months of talking to him every day. Unfortunately there's no way to learn how to understand a working class Londoner/Manc/Geordie/Scouser from a text book, you just have to get used to it.

The impression given of the UK is that everyone talks like the queen, but in reality almost everyone speaks broken, irregular and incorrect English. That's probably why most non-native speakers tend to learn American English rather than British English.
So... wait... lemme get this straight...

They speak "English" ... in England?

Wooahh..... O.o
Edited: 2009-05-28, 11:47 pm
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#41
Sidenote- one of my ALT friends (who is English) had a Japanese teacher correct his pronounciation. That really ticked him off- he's like "I'm bloody ENGLISH- it's my farking language!" They wanted him to talk more like an American, haha.
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#42
captal Wrote:[...]
"I'm bloody ENGLISH- it's my farking language!"
[...]
Did he say farking? or moshikashitara... "Frackin!!!!"
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#43
harhol Wrote:The impression given of the UK is that everyone talks like the queen, but in reality almost everyone speaks broken, irregular and incorrect English. That's probably why most non-native speakers tend to learn American English rather than British English.
It's hard to hold that impression if you've actually heard a UKer open their mouth. My impression is much more toward the latter :o
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#44
Only 4 days on the primsluer and I'm already speaking much better, maybe it was a confidence thing, time will tell. So thanks for all the replys ive had so far.

Ah good old english accent bashing! Just wait intill you hear the welsh accent, or even worse the scottish accent! Even I can't understand them. In Japan the people that do speak english can hardly understand me because of my english accent and vocablary (which is surprisngly different from americans).

On a side note it was a cicada that was making the noises, so damn loud and different sounding from the ones on youtube.
Edited: 2009-05-29, 1:54 am
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#45
Babyrat Wrote:Only 4 days on the primsluer and I'm already speaking much better, maybe it was a confidence thing, time will tell. So thanks for all the replys ive had so far.

Ah good old english accent bashing! Just wait intill you hear the welsh accent, or even worse the scottish accent! Even I can't understand them. In Japan the people that do speak english can hardly understand me because of my english accent and vocablary (which is surprisngly different from americans).

On a side note it was a cicada that was making the noises, so damn loud and different sounding from the ones on youtube.
You guys were suckers for not licensing it as intellectual property before 1776. Wink
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#46
masaman Wrote:When I first went to Britain and stopped by a Burger King, I was like "ハンバーガー プリーズ" and they were like "I'm sorry? (hum bugger poo ree zoo? what the ??)" and I had to repeat that for 10 times or so to get a hamburger and chips. That was a mind altering experience. I knew I didn't speak English, but I didn't think English was THAT different.
Hope you enjoy the stay.
Why would any rational person put something in their bodies purchased at Burger King or any other fast food restaurant. (Ignoring the unhealthy aspect) From the slaughter house to the guy flipping burgers, there are too many along the way to serving your food who really hate their job and might have already been fired from much nicer places. Back in high school my friends who worked fast food would laugh re-calling what they did to food when no one was looking. I would almost be more likely to buy from street vendors in Bangkok. :/
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#47
by the way, the title of this topic is just awsome :-)
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#48
bodhisamaya Wrote:(Ignoring the unhealthy aspect) From the slaughter house to the guy flipping burgers, there are too many along the way to serving your food who really hate their job and might have already been fired from much nicer places. Back in high school my friends who worked fast food would laugh re-calling what they did to food when no one was looking.
You mean something like this?

Dirty Dirty Dominos pizza
"Youtube" Domino's Pizza Workers arrested, charged.
Edited: 2009-05-29, 9:31 am
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#49
Bangkok street venders would have been killer, but there weren't many in UK 20 years agoSmile
Plus, fastfood restaurants weren't as bad back then if I remember it correctly.

On the British accent, yea, only British person I personally know who spoke like the Queen was a professor at my college and everbody else spoke in their own dialects. I regret I didn't pick one up, It would have been really cool Cool

Actually British accent should be easier for Japanese to speak and listen to. The vowels are typicaly a little more similar to Japanese vowels and T is pronounced more clearly. American T often throw Japanese people off. My parents learnt somewhat British style English but yes, American accent is prevalant these days. To tell the truth though, many Japanese can't even tell the difference between Britsh and American, so it's not your accent's problem they don't understand you. If you have to communicate in English and there is no one around who speaks English, try writing it down and there is a good chance you will get a better result.

Anyway, glad to hear you got the hang of it in such a short time Babyrat, give us an update when you get to Osaka. I'm interested in how you will find there.
Edited: 2009-05-29, 9:33 am
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#50
kazelee Wrote:So... wait... lemme get this straight...

They speak "English" ... in England?

Wooahh..... O.o
??
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