I meant to rote-learn them, thinking there aren't that many. My current flashcards go "English name" -> "stroke order diagram" like this one. But after 8 days, I start to think this might not be the best idea: is it going to work, and am I even trying to learn the right thing in the first place?

I now have the 96 unvoiced cards active. Each day there are 20-30 reviews and I fail most of them the first time. I can now clear them quickly, going round the loop a few times. But they don't stick, and the next day very little has changed. I think my number of daily reviews may be creeping up rather than down.

I suspect that after a couple of failures, I'm learning the answer from its position in the circle rather than the question (which could be a big part of why things aren't sticking). Does anyone know if I can make failed cards appear in random order?

(It reminds me of how I learn people's names when we're all sitting in a circle, doing our introductions, and perhaps playing some name games. Then we get up to do something else and I forget everyone again =P)

And then there's the question of whether I'm using the wrong questions . I noticed a deck that was hiragana<->katakana, which I assumed would be more difficult, but maybe not? Should I be learning the pronunciation now? And sometimes it seems like whole words are easier to recognise, so, now that I can copy them well enough, is studying the letters on their own a smart thing to do at all?

The best thing to do with something so simple as kana is to simply make real flashcards. Romaji on one side, the kana on the other. Then simply do it constantly for an hour or so each day, both ways, randomly. If you're going to use an SRS like you're doing now, you're going to need mnemonics. If you want to rote memorize them (I personally recommend it), you need to review a lot more often than an SRS will allow you.

The best thing you can do is to review them several times each day for a few days, then start reading Japanese texts written in kana. They will get stuck quickly and eventually it will just become second nature.

An SRS isn't for learning new things, it's for reviewing things you already know. If you want to brute force it, then make some paper flashcards like Tobberoth suggested and study in batches until you get 100% retention, then add to SRS.

But I would recommend Remembering the Kana (or making up your own mnemonics). For someone that's finished RTK, the kana should take no more than a few hours to learn. But a brute force method takes a week or two.

Try making flashcards of words you know written in hiragana and katakana. That way you can reaffirm five or six with each rep rather than just one.

Here's where you can download and print kana flashcards
http://www.polarcloud.com/kana

I'm at the same stage as you. I made real flashcards, but haven't used them actually. Instead, I read through "Remembering the Kana" by Heisig, coupled with the smart.fm hiragana/katakana.

http://smart.fm/series/3322

I feel decent with both, now,though I barely started smart.fm katakana.

But having done the kanji already, the katakana are much simpler than the hiragana, because you already know a lot of the symbols, and already have images for them.

harhol Wrote:Try making flashcards of words you know written in hiragana and katakana. That way you can reaffirm five or six with each rep rather than just one.

This is good advice. Since it's not in an SRS, it doesn't matter that it's harder to grade yourself. What you really need is just a lot of exposure to kana in short bursts.

Thanks for the feedback. I thought I read about people using SRS to learn all the capital cities and things like that =(. But yes, what you've said makes sense.

I'm only up to 104 in RTK, and I don't really know any real Japanese yet.


Hmm, actually, it looks like a good number of the katakana have been sticking, though the hiragana aren't. And my Digimon D-3 and D-Terminal (mainly katakana English) are making more sense than they did before. The menus seemed largely random lines the last time I looked at them.

I did things the ol' fashioned way - that is, playing import video games and constantly referring to a kana chart - though I can't exactly recommend going that route unless you actually find it fun. (Worked great for me and katakana, though!)

Heisig's Remembering the Kana really isn't so bad. I think it's kind of overkill considering how kana is relatively simple, but the mnemonic approach works quite well in my experience (used it a while back to hone my rusty kana).

for me, hiragana stuck well (reading) after doing Remembering the Kana and playing a flash game on my mobile phone every spare minute i had at work. "Hiragana Recall" it was free from somewhere.. try searching.. its multiple choice but you can cover that with your thumb easy enough.

Katakana took longer but i find it easier now im doing sentences as im seeing a lot more in context, random katakana words still throw me a little, i didnt find remember the kana that useful for katakana (expect for フ ブ ラ ス etc.. mnemonics those really helped)

writing however, i found harder to remember the writing of them quickly, it wasnt until i specifically added production only cards to my SRS that this started to stick.

bladethecoder Wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I thought I read about people using SRS to learn all the capital cities and things like that =(. But yes, what you've said makes sense.

I'm only up to 104 in RTK, and I don't really know any real Japanese yet.


Hmm, actually, it looks like a good number of the katakana have been sticking, though the hiragana aren't. And my Digimon D-3 and D-Terminal (mainly katakana English) are making more sense than they did before. The menus seemed largely random lines the last time I looked at them.

I actually did that (learned the cities) but it was really hard and they didn't stick well. It's generally better to make up some form of mnemonic... or overexposure yourself for a while until the cities has stuck, THEN use an SRS to keep that knowledge alive.

The reason I sorta think mnemonics is overkill for kana is that kana is like the latin alfabet... it's mainly meaningless symbols which just represent small sounds. You don't really need to understand them or anything, you just need instant knowledge, as soon as you see the symbol, you have to think of a sound. While mnemonics are extremely efficient, it's a relatively slow mechanism compared to rote and muscle. When you read a text of kana, you don't want to think of mnemonics and images, you just want to have that sound into your brain instantly.

Now I made it sound like mnemonics is detrimental, I don't think it is. I just don't think alphabets is the place to use it, wheras I DO think alphabets are one of those few things worth rote memorizing.

I think it's a good idea to practice writing all of them from start to finish. It will help you learn them, as well as help you learn their order - which is useful for looking up dictionaries, same way as you know the order of the alphabet.

vosmiura Wrote:I think it's a good idea to practice writing all of them from start to finish. It will help you learn them, as well as help you learn their order - which is useful for looking up dictionaries, same way as you know the order of the alphabet.

Write'em backwards too.

I'm comfortable reading the kana (although my katakana is much slower and I still have a hell of a time with ソンシツ and ワウ). However, I find that I often can't write them when I need to (mostly the katakana, again).

This is a problem since I know that my Japanese exam will involve questions requiring me to turn hiragana into equivalent katakana and vice versa. Since I can already read them quite comfortably and just need the practice writing would you recommend just sticking them in my Anki deck (as hiragana<-->katakana cards)? Or is Remembering the Kana useful enough for me to take a look at? Any suggestopms?

blackmacros Wrote:I'm comfortable reading the kana (although my katakana is much slower and I still have a hell of a time with ソンシツ and ワウ). However, I find that I often can't write them when I need to (mostly the katakana, again).

This is a problem since I know that my Japanese exam will involve questions requiring me to turn hiragana into equivalent katakana and vice versa. Since I can already read them quite comfortably and just need the practice writing would you recommend just sticking them in my Anki deck (as hiragana<-->katakana cards)? Or is Remembering the Kana useful enough for me to take a look at? Any suggestopms?

Production cards in a SRS should work. You can also grab some japanese wikipedia page or something, convert it to hiragana then simply transcribe it into katakana, should be good training.

Ah.. Kana was one of the first things I had done for Japanese language studies.

You may be familiar with the 'Let's Learn Japanese' video series.. Well every episode or so they would present 5 hiragana. I wrote them down over and over and it quickly became easier to recall them.

Once you feel confident about writing them down, start replacing anything romaji with hiragana and katakana... And that's about it. It's really easy if you put an ounce of effort into it.

I would do either

a) Have cards like "Write: ... in katakana" with at least enough words covering all of the kana once.

or b) Have a card that says "Write all the katakana" and if you forget any of them, or write them out of order, you fail .

After some more thought, it seemed to me that an SRS algorithm is likely still to be useful for brute-force - it just needs to begin with a smaller interval. For now I've set Anki like this (along with "review cards in random order") and I'm reviewing for a few minutes every so often throughout the day. So far, it seems to be working nicely. I'll post in a few days to tell how it turned out ;)

(Whether I remember anything overnight remains to be seen.)

Tobberoth Wrote:

blackmacros Wrote:I'm comfortable reading the kana (although my katakana is much slower and I still have a hell of a time with ソンシツ and ワウ). However, I find that I often can't write them when I need to (mostly the katakana, again).

This is a problem since I know that my Japanese exam will involve questions requiring me to turn hiragana into equivalent katakana and vice versa. Since I can already read them quite comfortably and just need the practice writing would you recommend just sticking them in my Anki deck (as hiragana<-->katakana cards)? Or is Remembering the Kana useful enough for me to take a look at? Any suggestopms?

Production cards in a SRS should work. You can also grab some japanese wikipedia page or something, convert it to hiragana then simply transcribe it into katakana, should be good training.

Thanks I might try that out!

EDIT: Oops I meant to quote Tobberoth. Fixed

Day 2 of short starting intervals, and I think this might actually work =P


On a related note, how's my writing? Sometimes I write a character again trying to improve it, but I'm not always sure what is "good enough".

Of course, by default, I'm targeting the KanjiStrokeOrders font on my flashcards.

http://i39.tinypic.com/20kpx6s.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2iax4c9.jpg

Here's an easy strategy for anything involving flashcards. Do them in batches of 5 or 6. Do the first batch. When you know them then do the second batch separately. Then do all of them. When you know them, do the third batch separately. Then do all of them. Rinse. Repeat.

For short term memory, you're only really going to be able to get 5 or 6 at once. As you drill, the constant repetition will move them to long term memory. You should be able to learn hiragana and katakana in one day with this method, and then you make sure to drill the complete sets of cards at least once per day, but more often would better. Since hiragana and katakana are a lot more basic, there's less opportunity for mnemonics. There's also so few of them, around ~100 between hiragana and katakana, that a brute force method really does work best for them.

Start by doing them kana->reading. Then switch it to reading->writing the kana. Then don't go back to kana->reading. I wouldn't mix katakana and hiragana decks. I don't think you need to make real paper flashcards, but you do need to practice writing them.

SRS is for deeper long term knowledge for things that respond to mnemonics. Hiragana and Katakana are so basic that it just isn't worth it to SRS. Brute force them until you know them, and add them in small groups.

When you feel you know them, do a lot of reading exercises and try to get your hiragana reading speed up. It almost doesn't matter if you're reading actual words. You need to be able to scan them as easily as you scan the alphabet so that you're no longer recognizing individual characters so much as you're seeing groups of letters and words. Read them aloud when you do this, it will help.

That's the biggest hurdle I see a lot of beginners struggle with. They just can't get through the sentences fast enough to get everything in their head. By the time they get to the end of a sentence they've forgotten the beginning because it's taken them so long. Understanding is actually made harder at very slow speeds, like if I spelled a word to you very slowly you would have more trouble understanding it than if you were given all the letters at once like you're reading it. The same is true if I were to give you each word in a sentence separately, but in proper order. You'd have more trouble understanding it than if I had given it to you all at once.

I find the SRS useful for testing stroke order (and maybe handwriting). I tend to develop bad habits over time and use my kana cards to test that i'm still writing them the way they are supposed to be written.

I think that making cards with the kana's sound on one side would be more useful than having romaji in your cards. If you use audacity it's pretty easy to rip sound from the kana charts available on the net:

http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/self/site/...agana.html

Here's one I found that has a female speaker reading the kana. I posted it because I used it to make a kana deck for my younger sister (please don't ask me for it). Kana charts with male speakers are much easier to find.

Thanks, lots of ideas here =). There seems to be some disagreement about the best way to do it, but I guess that's to be expected.

I can confirm that the modified SRS strategy is working, as far as being able to answer the questions on my cards. Things became a lot easier once I changed the intervals. I'm now down to about 10 minutes reviewing twice a day, with at least 90% retention, and answering each question faster as time goes on. This may not have been the most efficient way, but it's not bad either.

I also don't seem to be having any trouble with the particular ones people often mention mixing up. For the rest, I do occasionally write the wrong character, but there don't seem to be any long-term confusions. I suspect that learning the writing first helps there, like with the kanji.

Of course, what I've done is only the start for reading. After considering all the posts here, I think the next step is to study the pronunciation of words.

I did actually pick up some words and phrases when I trained at kendo for 6 months, but my pronunciation seems to be lacking. Already I have some bad habits to correct.

Hi everyone,
I am interested in learning Japanese and was referred to this site by a member from another site. I have some questions on how i get started? I am going to get "Remembering the Kana" by Mr. Heisgl to start off with. Also, i heard it was good to get some electronic software to learn like Anki(is this what they call SRS mnemonic)? Also, what are electronic flashcards exactly? Wouldn't it be beneficial to take a piece of paper and write down the characters and find some audio to get the pronunciation correctly as i go through the book? Any tips would be greatly appreciated from a newbie.

p.s: Isn't it better to learn Kana before getting into Kanji?

inquisitive Wrote:Hi everyone,
I am interested in learning Japanese and was referred to this site by a member from another site. I have some questions on how i get started? I am going to get "Remembering the Kana" by Mr. Heisgl to start off with. Also, i heard it was good to get some electronic software to learn like Anki(is this what they call SRS mnemonic)? Also, what are electronic flashcards exactly? Wouldn't it be beneficial to take a piece of paper and write down the characters and find some audio to get the pronunciation correctly as i go through the book? Any tips would be greatly appreciated from a newbie.

p.s: Isn't it better to learn Kana before getting into Kanji?

Anki is an SRS system yes.
Electronic Flashcards are simply flashcards simulated by a computer. Go to Ankis webpage and check the intro videos, that's what electric flashcards are.
It's generally not beneficial to use paper flashcards, mainly because it's so hard and annoying to organize them. The SRS spaces the reviews out over time automatically, making sure you only study as much as you need to. With paper flashcards, you may review several times a day which is a waste of time. There are exceptions of course, when learning kana, regular paper flashcards can be very useful.
Audio for pronunciation is great, definetely listen to a lot of japanese.

As for you PS, it MIGHT be better to learn kana first, it depends on your approach. Some people like to get kanji out of the way before they start learning Japanese so they can focus 100% on Japanese grammar, vocabulary etc. In such a situation, learning kanji first is a good idea. Others like to study kanji and Japanese at the same time, and it's more or less impossible to study Japanese if you don't know kana. In such a situation, one has to start with kana.