I'll just preface this by saying that living in Japan is something that I am only tangentially interested in (learning the language is more of an intellectual excercise) so I don't have any emotional attachment to either side of this 'debate'.

Having said that, I'd just like to let you guys know that both sides of this conversation have been really intruiging to read. I find it really interesting to hear the different perspectives being put forward. So thanks!

thistime Wrote:Chully, have you lived or worked in Japan before? Just curious.

Holding two jobs here now. JET ALT and private eikaiwa. Just my day jobs, I hope they don't end up defining me too much as a person.
ETA: I am holding jobs, which I clarified to be day jobs. Work is different.
It seems you know more about Living and Working in Japan than I do, thistime. I want to know more about finding employment in a field that doesn't exploit my foreign-ness some day, so please, continue to add to the discussion. Peace.

FutureBlues Wrote:

jorgebucaran Wrote:Regarding FutureBlues, something that were never answered was why he went to Japan in the first place? I think this one is a valid question and may help us understand better his position.

In high school, I was a bit of an anime nerd, and one of those lonely guys who read a bunch of manga and thought, "Oh man, I wish my life was as romantic as the love stories in Love Hina or Chobits." I watched a ton of anime and fantasized about life in Japan. I wanted my life at school to have the same sort of drama and depth that anime school life seemed to have, and I hoped that someday I could move to Japan and be Japanese, making up for what I perceived as a crappy (read lonely) childhood. I talked to people who were studying Japanese, and ordered books about it, wishing that I'd had a chance to take it in high school before the teacher at our high school packed up and moved on before I was enrolled there.

After high school, I spent a year dealing with depression and going to the state school in town, basically having zero friends (as I mentioned, all my friends went off to more important universities, even the people who I'd always thought I was smarter than, etc.) and worrying about what the next year would bring if I bucked up my college applications again.

I moved to D.C. the next year as the result of a questionable choice (nobody in my economic situation could conceivably come to the same conclusions about the most expensive private university in the country through any logical means) that I made while still existing in my fantasy anime world that I drowned out my depression with. At school in D.C. I had a great sophomore year, and when it was time to choose my major, I decided that, in absence of any major interests besides Japanese, I would major in Japanese. As a result of that year, my interest in anime declined, proportionate to the increase of my interest in life in general and I found that the more Japanese I learned, the less I was interested in anime and manga. On the other hand, I devoured translated books by Japan's most prominent authors and loved my Japanese film class. I studied in Nagoya for a year, got a great concrete foundation in Japanese and came back the next year and finished my major with only 3 years of Japanese instruction, instead of the usual four.

After that, I applied to the JET program so that I could spend more time in the country studying Japanese, but after my interview I had major second thoughts and I wasn't sure if I could stomach another year in Japan. I met some amazing (American) friends in Nagoya, but I never made a SINGLE Japanese friend or dated a single Japanese girl during my time and I was really worried that the intense, crushing loneliness of Japan that I had experienced first hand during that year in Japan (in a homestay no less) would come back to haunt me during my JET tenure. I was accepted, and decided that I would spend no more than a year abroad, but when it came time to re-contract, I decided that I would stick with it for another year for the sake of my language study (again, I was faced with the reality that I had zero Japanese friends and was mostly lonely, even though I went drinking every night of every weekend and tried my best to talk to anyone and everyone, even when it felt like I had little or nothing to say) and re-contracted. In the middle of my second year here, when it came time to re-contract again, I deliberated for probably 100 days or more, pulling out that sheet of paper everyday and waving my pen over it, weighing the pros and cons, worrying about the American economy, and trying to come to terms with the possibility of staying another year while all my friends in the States were like, "Come back man, come back." I signed my papers late Christmas after a work enkai, telling myself that I could do it another year, and that life was long and full of opportunity-- plenty of time to deal with living life and having people in that life when I would go back home a year and a half later.

Shortly after I signed my papers, I started dating my girlfriend who I met by chance at a social function at a local restaurant and fought tooth and nail to get close to, whenever I had the chance. And I made some changes in the way I was doing things at work. Little by little, my decision to stay has been venerated by my current situation, but there are only two Japanese people in Japan that I would say that I feel close to, my girlfriend, and interestingly enough, a vice-principal at one of my schools who is the only Japanese person I've ever met in 3 years here who doesn't do tatemae (with me).

Does that cast more light on my being here?

Edit: @wally: Injecting your opinion into the discussion with a rimshot like "Grow up, people," is a pretty pathetic way to introduce anything meant to be taken seriously by anyone into anything. In a sense you're right, the theme here is that the idea of Japan, or in fact, anywhere being the "best place in the world" is a childish delusion; however, shitting on everyone in this thread by waving your fingers and saying "Nah, nah, I'm older than you (and therefore wiser and more prudent) and my situation is different," isn't really worth anyone's time. You'd be better serving everyone by offering your own personal anecdotes so that those interested could review the information themselves and come tho their own conclusions, in light of the information at hand.

With that said, I'd like to add that I think my personal favorite thing about Japan and learning Japanese is that it will temper your soul with fire and seal up any potential issues with self-esteem you may have had. I mean, eventually I think that happens anyway, but when I look back on the "problems" I had when I was in high school, and later in college-- the worst times, when nothing seemed to be going my way, I grin and shake my head, because from the mountain I sit atop now, all those little pockmarks and gullies I used to agonize over are nothing more than microscopic inconsistencies-- plankton in the sea of my past, or something, you know? When I go home on my personal time and speak English with native speakers, I feel like a genius man-about-town and possess the self-confidence of a 1000 bears. Japan's influence, the bullshit you have to endure to get to the good stuff here, steels you like nothing else for dealing with anything and everything. Even if I forgot all the Japanese I know today tomorrow, the influence this place has had on my psyche would make every second of it worth it.

I agree totally. I don't Live in Japan but i would like to think that i was intelligent and independant enough to draw my own opinions.

With respect to everyone that has posted, and to those reading them, how will this information really help you? How many stories do you hear a day in your own country about how this and that happened to someone you don't know? I live in the UK and crime here is rife, read the news today: Some guy set fire to a woman at a taxi rank because she had no taxi's free, a young lad stabbed his ex girlfriend to death beacuse she didnt love him. This barely scratches the surface of the horrible things that happen here (things you would struggle to even make up). It doesnt mean however that you will arrive in the UK and be set on fire by some mental case (just be aware, there are more of them walking the streets than there are in hospitals )

But the point im trying to make is, i believe that this thread could be damaging to any person that wishes to live in Japan or just visit. These are a tiny amount of first hand accounts when compared to all the foreigners in Japan. And the example above shows that just because something happens to them people assume it happens to everyone. Some people just have a negative outlook on life. Lifes too short,ask the taxi lady (its cool, she didnt die).

So go out and find your own experiences its part of being a grown up, by all means ask for advice and maybe you want a sneak preview from those who have walked the path before you, but you will never really know untill you walk it yourself. So go and do something usefull, do your reviews, read a book. Just stop living and dying by what others post on a website. all the best

Diana Wrote:You seem to have already made up your mind about this, so why don't you just go there and see for yourself? [...] instead of my dissecting my posts, since you made up your mind, why don't you just go there? I get the distinct impression you guys have really made a decision and are just looking for yes-men to support you.

Not at all. Almost all the posts I've read in this thread have been interesting & useful. All I'm saying is that a number of these problems which are said to be specific to Japan are universal and could be experienced anywhere. And as I said previously, money is a major problem, so I can't just fly over for a few weeks/months and sample the lifestyle: it has to be all or nothing.

Diana Wrote:And as for foreigness, I can say as an immigrant to the US that you are not always going to be foreign here, or at least, always feel it. So, no, I don't think it's true of anywhere.

The USA is basically an immigrant utopia and has only existed for a few hundred years. That's why nobody will ever feel foreign there, because there is no such thing as an ethnic American. But almost all other countries in the world will treat foreigners differently (both postively and negatively).

welldone101 Wrote:Both you and harhol now have requested people to post bad stuff about our collective experiences, and then played down, dismissed, or attacked those of us who were contributing.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I've spend the majority of my time in this thread defending accusations that my motives are foolish, that I'm naive and that my career plans are unrealistic and/or impossible (as have Taylor and Jorge). On the few occasions when I've queried the Japanese-ness of specific incidents (people being shy, not wanting confrontation etc) I've been dismissed on the grounds than I've never been to Japan - but my point is that these things regularly happen outside Japan also. All I'm suggesting is that some people's gripes are either demonstrative of universal (i.e. not specifically Japanese) human traits or are reflective of their own personality and upbringing. This has been backed up by other users. I have not "attacked" or "dismissed" anybody.

FutureBlues Wrote:

harhol Wrote:

Diana Wrote:You are always going to be foreign in Japan, no matter how hard you try.

True of anywhere, surely?

Surely, you jest. Surely. You're from the UK, right? Do you look at people of Asian/African/Middle Eastern descent and immediately know that they AREN'T from the UK?

In some places, yes. In others, no. Not everywhere is like London. If I saw an Asian man in Fife, for example, I would definitely know that he wasn't from the UK (and I'd also fear for his safety). Most places in the UK are 99% white, several 99.9%, some 100%, and those that aren't tend to be segregated on racial grounds (e.g. the Polish area over here, the Asian area over there).

FutureBlues Wrote:How would you, yourself, pick out someone in the UK who wasn't from the UK? Would you be able to pick me, an American out of a crowd on the streets of London with 100% accuracy and know immediately that I wasn't a citizen of the UK? No, that's pure nonsense. America, even more so.

True, but you can't compare London and the USA with the rest of the world, since both are renowned for their diverse racial mix, whereas the rest of the world isn't. In the majority of the UK, ethnic minorities aren't so well integrated. In certain places you won't be able to find a non-white person within a 100 mile radius. My point is that a non-white person would struggle to fully integrate into a mostly white society like Scotland, Finland, Ukraine, Spain etc. so it's only natural that a white person would face difficulties when attempting to integrate into a mostly non-white society (e.g. Japan, India, Nigeria).

Oh lordy. jorgebucaran. Please for the love of sushi if you should ever leave your country, don't come here.

FutureBlues Wrote:Here's my question, to the people who've joined this thread who want to go to Japan but haven't ever been: Why? Why Japan?

jorgebucaran Wrote:So why Japan? Well, did I mention I was fascinated with Japan since I was kid? It has always been a dream of mine. However one big reason for me is the challenge and the adventure. Japan is not just another place is "the place", becoming Japanese is naturally hard and I like that. I know of people that emigrated to Australia or Europe and actually did fine, most didn't though. However, honestly, that is just too easy.

My name's methanol but you can call me Moses. I just came down from this mountain to hand you a stone tablet lightning-inscribed by the hand of god with the following Commandments:

1. You don't know anything about Japan.
2. Seriously. You do not know the first ***** thing about Japan.
3. You are not Japanese, and you are never becoming Japanese, not even a little bit.
4. You don't know what tatemae is, and you most certainly do not "love" tatemae, which is a ridiculous proposition on top of being lexically incoherent.
5. No one wants you here. In fact, everyone wants you to stay away, and not just for your own good.
6. Don't come to Japan.
7. You'll be happier.

This next paragraph is going to be uncomfortable to write, but it's necessary that you have an outline of my cred so that all of you can contextualize what I'm about to say. I happen to live in an outlying suburb of Osaka, where I am about to wrap up my second year in Japan. My time here has been divided up by three cities- Nagoya, Osaka, and Tokyo, in decreasing order of length. I passed JLPT 1 last December with >80% and a few hours of brush-up study. I have been living off pocket lint and the skin of my teeth for the past eight months searching for work in a foreign country with a broken economy. Living by myself in a house, I must attend to every aspect of life here without an ounce of help from anyone. That is, I am fully independent-- what you need to understand is that I know my stuff.

I've never been an ALT so I can't comment on their experiences directly, although I have many friends active in the ranks. Certainly there are those out there with more experience in Japan than me. But the fact is I have had experiences here that can and have broken men. I have seen it happen to others, and indeed it nearly happened to me. I could write about them in detail, but you wouldn't believe me anyway.

Come along with me on a magical journey to the faraway land called Imagination where we may ponder some scenarios. I mean for you to consider all of these in the most grave seriousness. Imagine a good friend of yours whom you have known for years. You take him out to dinner tomorrow night, to a place you both know well. The two of you sit down, and dinner is served-- you nonchalantly pick up your knife and fork and begin to eat. The first thing out of your friend's mouth is, "Wow! You can eat with utensils? That's really great!" You find yourself at a loss for words at this interjection, wondering if perhaps your friend hasn't begin to lose his grip.

Let's change the scene. Now imagine you're on a date with a girl you met at school- a fine local restaurant with delicious food. You have a great time with her, you both appeared to enjoy the conversation, and the fare was excellent. As you step out of the restaurant, the owner comes out to greet you. But here, something strange happens. He begins to ask you many questions you're unaccustomed to-- "Where are you from? How long have you been here?" Only, the really weird thing is that he doesn't face you as he addresses the questions to you. Actually, it almost seems that he's diligently avoiding looking at you. He faces your girlfriend, who is growing increasingly uncomfortable, as he interrogates you. After you part for the night, she writes you an e-mail saying how much fun she had and telling you she wants to see you again for sure. You never meet again.

Perhaps you were able to read the above with a smile on your face, or perhaps you even laughed a little. But these are not jokes. They are not jokes, and they are not quirky or random occurrences. Experiences like the above will become your daily life if you come here. If you are lucky, you will not find yourself in the depressing and dangerous situations I did. What is certain, though, is that reality will turn on its head in ways you can't begin to understand now, even if I hold your hand through Imagination-land, which brings me to the subject of tatemae.

What FutureBlues said about tatemae only barely scratches the surface. Tatemae is like quantum mechanics-- you may think you understand what it is, and perhaps in a mathematical way you do. But until you experience its painful weirding affects in real life, you won't realize that you have no idea about it and in fact you never did.

Tatemae is your entire host family telling you to your face that they're too busy to visit the world expo with you, and then going behind your back the very next day without saying a word. Tatemae is being led miles and miles out into a strange town by drinking buddies at 3 AM and then abandoned without a word. Tatemae is singling you out for relentless gossip and backbiting when you're out, and greeting you with polite smiles and a carefully constructed farce when you come back. Tatemae is the impenetrable wall of social non-recognition that Japanese people will instinctively erect the instant they catch wind of your foreign scent. Tatemae is the excuse for every social cowardice you can imagine (and believe me you will be no exception), and tatemae is pretending that everything is just fine and dandy while shitfacedly participating in all of the above.

It doesn't matter how wrong the group activity is, because as long as you're with the group, you won't be singled out yourself, right?

Ask yourself, does this sound like a place you want to be?

thistime Wrote:I have spent the night at a Japanese friend's house. I can go to a Japanese friend's house for dinner. I have Japanese friends that I share inside jokes with. I have Japanese friends I feel close to. I am married to a Japanese guy and have NEVER felt like I was being treated like a foreigner by my in-laws.

Sure, so can I. But 1000 yen direct by bank furikomi to your account if I'm wrong says these people, this 'friend' and your husband, had interest in and experience with (i.e. college courses about + study/living abroad in) your country before you met them.

Now there's no need to be a negative Nancy and say there are no positive experiences to be had here. There are walls-- walls that are higher than many of you can see. I have climbed some of them, so I know, but it took me five grueling years, I'm nowhere near the end of my struggle, and to be quite honest I'm no longer certain it's worth it. There are walls that can't be overcome, no matter how one struggles, and those are the realities of life we all must face as foreigners in an insular island nation. If life here were all bad, I'm not such a sucker for punishment as to stick around this long.

However, the shameless idealism on display in some of the posts in this thread allude to a country that just isn't realistic at all. The problem is that these people do not grasp the full meaning and significance of the rift in culture between themselves and the Japanese. When I say culture I don't mean green tea, sushi and onsens. There are people who can't bring themselves to try raw fish or bathe naked in public but discussing the prospects of such a person living in Japan doesn't begin to make sense. What I am talking about is what FutureBlues was getting at.

The modes of relationship you and I are accustomed to do not exist here. No amount of immersion and cultural adjustment will change this fact. You cannot have the friendships you seek-- the ones I sought with a crazed, relentless determination for a year-- because they do not exist. You will only find them with other foreigners, or with those Japanese people who are lucky enough to have been blessed with experience studying abroad in a country like the USA or Australia. You will never have a satisfying, genuine relationship with a Japanese person who wasn't previously interested in or experienced with your culture.

You will either accept this and stay, be defeated by it and go home, or ignore it and go insane here. Mark my words.

Somebody's bitter...

Above post is awesome! Well said Moses! What I can't believe is that some of this stuff happened to you in big cities! Seems like the kind of stuff that would go down in rural Saga or something, but to have that happen in Nagoya, Osaka, and Tokyo seems tough!

As for Harhol and Jorge, I've said it before and I've said it again ( with other members now contributing) that it seems like you ask for the experiences of others, and then do genuinely dismiss them without giving it a second thought.

I'm not saying it's bad- heck, it's only human! I think all of us at one point used to be like you, thinking Japan was a fairyland and then we all went and grew up. I remember my parents telling me this stuff (Smart people, and they'd never even been to Japan!) and just like you, I'd dismiss their ideas and think, " Oh, that only happens to OTHER gaijin! I'm so-and-so, and speak better Japanese, and yada yada yada. I'm not going to live in a bubble, heck I HATE people like that and disrespect them, etc, etc"

I think the collective atmosphere on this thread is that if you wanna go, you should go. The people like me on this thread who bring up the bad points Japan has, all prefaced our arguments saying they were all OUR personal experiences and may not apply to you. You can choose to accept our infinite wisdom or not. The really optimistic people on this thread who are being nice to you and warning you our negative experiences are only OUR own negative experiences- are still just like us in saying that you should go to Japan and experience it for yourself.

You guys are both adults, and if Japan is great for you and you have an amazing time, you will be all the better for it! Heck, as one gaijin to another, I support you, in my aggressive, female kind of way, haha and genuinely hope you succeed. After all, too many stories of war veterans like us that aren't so happy all the time, right? Go and make Japan better- for all of us!

I understand money is an issue like you say, but I don't think the solution to your problems lies in asking people to discuss the issues they faced, and then finding a way, ANY way, to simply dismiss the ideas these people have given. I applaud some of the posters here for taking the time to bare their (soul, really, in a lot of cases) to random chaps like you and then still taking the time to stick around and answer your questions. Aggressive girls like me, even a few pages back were already getting exasperated and saying, " Just go already!"

( BTW, thanks to the other poster who said not to listen to chauvinistic males! Many hugs! This thread has genuinely had me thinking about going back to my envir law dreams, which I had dismissed because I didn't think I was aggressive enough, lol)

And thistime, I'm genuinely curious about the inlaws. I actively read many blogs belonging to the AFWJ club in Japan, and many would not say the same about their in-laws, haha, to say the least. Are you a member, btw?

@Moses, @Diana, @FutureBlues

Thanks for your insight, that is what I was looking for. Forgive the severity of my words, I am not downplaying anyone, that would be ridiculous from my part. However let me tell you two things. First, if you are there and have struggled so much but don't regret a single moment, then we may not be so different from each other. And second, I like the challenge, the more you talk about how complex it is the more interesting and appealing it seems to me.

If I was to pursue something that you consider easy I would consider my life meaningless. I want to break all of that, experience it firsthand and change it, be an exception, climb the walls, and that is not naive thinking, because if everyone thinks is impossible then no one would be able to do it, ever. Now, is this an odd dream? I don't think so, I think is probably one of the most interesting, fulfilling and exciting things anyone can do with their life.

And for good or ill, I am doing it.

Well, I can only say Good luck to that! If you succeed, you would be one of the first! I can only say, " good luck." Who knows- perhaps you are destined to be the next Lafcadio Hearn or whatever that dude's name was.

When you get there, about 4-6 months in, can you start a topic about how you are doing? I'm rather curious.

Diana Wrote:As for Harhol and Jorge, I've said it before and I've said it again ( with other members now contributing) that it seems like you ask for the experiences of others, and then do genuinely dismiss them without giving it a second thought [...] I think all of us at one point used to be like you, thinking Japan was a fairyland and then we all went and grew up.

Firstly, I have never said Japan was a"fairyland" or anything of the sort. You seem to be getting me confused with someone else. My intention is not to dwell upon individual negative experiences (which can happen anywhere at any time) but to focus on things which apply to Japan in general. So for example, while someone exhibiting shyness may be interesting to read about, it is not the kind of information that I'm looking for. There have been several posts which I've found extremely helpful; the ones I'm replying to are those which have left me confused or bewildered and which discuss issues & events about which I seek some kind of clarification. If you notice I have never said anyone is incorrect, even the most negative posters.

Secondly, we're getting a lot of different viewpoints in this thread, most of which contrast wildly with one another. On the one hand we have Jarvik, thistime, Wally and others offering a mostly positive (but nevertheless realistic) viewpoint and on the other we have certain users offering a mostly (or entirely) negative viewpoint. Users who have lived in Japan have been kind enough to point out when they think a particular point is exaggerated and/or misleading. Are you suggesting I should completely ignore them? I can't agree with everyone!

For example, the idea that you can never make close friends in Japan, no matter how long you live there. Sorry, but I don't believe this in the slightest. I don't care that I've never been to Japan - basic laws of human nature dictate that friendly people will make friends wherever they go. Sure, the average person may not be as outgoing as those in America, but never making close friends? Ever? Not one? I just can't believe this, I'm afraid. If this makes me "dismissive" then so be it.

I don't think the issue is really about how "hard" it is to make friends in Japan, which is why people find it odd when some users say they "like the challenge". It's not a challenge, it's not something you can "try your best and beat". It's just the fact that Japanese people have a very very complex social culture which means they don't want to be your friend, they just want to be polite to you and avoid conflict.

All Japanese people aren't like that, and it depends on age as well. But saying "it's alright, I like a challenge" doesn't really mean anything, you can't force someone to want to be your friend, you can just hope that they want to.

*yawn*

Believe it, don't believe it, whatever. I'm gonna go ahead and be the 20 year old I am and say I am so over this entire topic, lol. But, I'm just gonna have a little chuckle first about the basic laws of human nature and Japan being in the same sentence. That's real cute right there.

Like I said, go on over and update us in a few months, mkay?

Tobberoth Wrote:I don't think the issue is really about how "hard" it is to make friends in Japan, which is why people find it odd when some users say they "like the challenge". It's not a challenge, it's not something you can "try your best and beat". It's just the fact that Japanese people have a very very complex social culture which means they don't want to be your friend, they just want to be polite to you and avoid conflict.

All Japanese people aren't like that, and it depends on age as well. But saying "it's alright, I like a challenge" doesn't really mean anything, you can't force someone to want to be your friend, you can just hope that they want to.

People make generalizations all the time. I am sure this is one. In general people will think of Muslim Arabs as ignorant fundamentalists and yet, my best friends here are Muslim Arabs and nothing like ignorant fundamentalists. There is all kind of people. Some are just different and can't be tagged "mainstream". The same could be said of many other minorities and/or ethnicity groups. I am sure there are Japanese people that embrace and proudly represent their culture but are also aware of its faults and try to distinguish themselves or at least break that facade the best they can without hurting or disrespecting anyone.

I do think it's a challenge. Because is not that I will trick someone into being my friend, I will be myself and with all the honesty and will seek the way to go around that social structure and solve what ultimately is just problem. For me is just that, a problem, so it must have a solution. I will probably fail many times, but that will help me pick up myself and lead me to eventual success.

Like Spock would say regarding @harhol comments above, "your reasoning is perfectly logical". It is just something of common sense. I have never been to Japan and I know I will experience the world upside-down as I know it, but even so, it's stupid to think that you will never make close friends. Sure it will be hard, timeless, etc., but not impossible. And even if that was the case, which in its absoluteness is absolutely absurd, I will try anyway. In fact, I bet you guys (the ones living in Japan) try everyday. Like FutureBlues story shows, the reason he is still in Japan is because every year his situation seems to improve, he just needs to be more patient.

Jorgebucaran, I'm dead serious when I say this: You do need to stay as far away from Japan as possible until you grow up.

You claim to "know" Japan is meant for you yet are continuously demonstrating that you know absolutely nothing about it. I'm not talking about not knowing super in depth details that only someone that has lived there could truly understand. You don't even seem to be aware of extremely well know aspects of Japanese culture. Your ideas are a complete contradiction. You DO NOT like Japan because you can't like something that you know nothing about, period.

You then contradict yourself again by saying that you will simply "solve" any of these possible social "problems" through hard work and patience. These "problems" you are talking about ARE THE VERY CULTURE YOU SAY YOU LOVE SO MUCH. You can't "solve" Japan. Japan is what it is because of what it is.

And finally, you will NEVER be Japanese, ever. You were not born a Japanese, you were not raised by Japanese parents, you didn't grow up in Japanese society. No amount of effort can replace those facts unless you figure out how to travel back in time. You were brought up in an entirely different culture which, like it or not, has impacted and shaped who you are. This can never be changed.


You don't want to come to Japan. You want to come to a delusional place that only exists in your mind.

activeaero Wrote:You then contradict yourself again by saying that you will simply "solve" any of these possible social "problems" through hard work and patience. These "problems" you are talking about ARE THE VERY CULTURE YOU SAY YOU LOVE SO MUCH. You can't "solve" Japan. Japan is what it is because of what it is.

*I am not contradicting at all.* The only "problem" (and that does not make me dislike Japan, I don't run away from things when I find them difficult) would be the Tatemae which I admit I didn't know about but I am very interested in study now. It is not a problem in itself because Japanese people do make friends with other Japanese people. It is a "problem" for the outsider like me. So basically more than a problem is a wall I need to climb. In fact, I appreciate Japan even more with this. If it was dead easy then it wouldn't be fun and exciting. There is so much more about the culture that I need to learn and this is evidently just one aspect of it.

activeaero Wrote:Jorgebucaran, I'm dead serious when I say this: You do need to stay as far away from Japan as possible until you grow up.

If you say this with good intentions, well, worry not, I will not be stupid nor auto-destroy. I will pursue my dreams and learn as much as I can during the ride.

However I don't feel a good vibe in how you laid it out. Why should I stay "as far away from Japan as possible"? If you read any of my posts and read what I have said that is the baddest thing you could tell me right now. I am working very hard to learn the language and learn the culture and I know I still have lots to learn. I am also participating in the forums to learn more about Japan from the experience of others willing to post it here.

Go to hell.

jorgebucaran,

Buy a plane ticket ASAP and enjoy your visit. Take in the experience and enjoy everything you can. Learn. Learn about this place that no one thinks you know anything about. Don't worry about these "problems" people are telling you about. Go there and find out for yourself.

Japan is, I'm sure, no dream land. Dream land doesn't exist. But if you think you can be happier in Japan, if for only a short time, go there. People will always discourage you because they're trying to protect you, but I say: go there. Be disappointed when something disappoints you. Live it. Experience it like yourself. If you don't, you'll never be satisfied and you'll always have regrets.

jorgebucaran Wrote:Go to hell.

Awesome response.

I also like how you avoided the meat of my statements. And once again a complete contradiction to your early statements of being tired of your current culture. So you can't overcome the problems you have with your own culture but you're going to go over to Japan and enjoy it's problems because it that is what makes it fun and exciting? That makes no sense, at all, and is just more proof that you are running off a delusion.

I'm going to Japan, as it is a dream of mine as well, and I'm willing to bet I'm busting my ass just as hard as you, if not more so, but I am not doing so on some fantasy I've created in my head. What you are doing is not healthy at all.

If you truly want to understand a culture then you must first be honest with yourself. When you tell yourself "I know I'll appreciate X" before you have actually experienced you are lying to yourself and distorting reality. A person that truly wanted to learn about Japan would want to try to be as neutral as possible. When you create a false image in advance and tell yourself you are going to force Japanese culture into that image then you aren't just not learning anything, you are actually HARMING Japanese culture by falsely misrepresenting it to others.

Dude I addressed the meat of your statements. I agree I need to be honest with myself and I plan to study the culture in depth. I am not living a fantasy just because I am very passionate about it. I am sure *we* are busting our asses very hard to get to our goals. Sure I am probably putting Japan in a pedestal, but so what? That is my hypothesis, I will try to do things my way and get where I want to get, if I fail, well, that's too bad.

You should be bashing all the people that think that you are crazy for pursuing such bold dreams instead of the people that just like you are working hard to reach theirs.

And yeah, just like you said to "stay as far away from Japan as possible" I tell you go to hell.

methanol Wrote:

thistime Wrote:I have spent the night at a Japanese friend's house. I can go to a Japanese friend's house for dinner. I have Japanese friends that I share inside jokes with. I have Japanese friends I feel close to. I am married to a Japanese guy and have NEVER felt like I was being treated like a foreigner by my in-laws.

Sure, so can I. But 1000 yen direct by bank furikomi to your account if I'm wrong says these people, this 'friend' and your husband, had interest in and experience with (i.e. college courses about + study/living abroad in) your country before you met them.

Not at all. I actually tend to avoid the people that are overly interested in America or "want foreign friends". From my experience, they are the ones where the relationship is the most superficial and one sided. Of course, all friends will ask me questions about where I'm from and about my culture and that is totally natural to me. And if one of my friends wanted to study abroad in America I would do all I could to help them. But the people who can't seem to get past the questions about my country, I tend to avoid. The friends who seem to really try to be seen out in public with a foreigner or who continue to speak English and even seem annoyed that you're speaking Japanese. Those kinds of people, it's obvious from the get-go, are only out for their own goals. So, I just move on.

Chill out dudes.

Diana Wrote:And thistime, I'm genuinely curious about the inlaws. I actively read many blogs belonging to the AFWJ club in Japan, and many would not say the same about their in-laws, haha, to say the least. Are you a member, btw?

No I'm not a member.

activeaero Wrote:You can't "solve" Japan. Japan is what it is because of what it is.

And finally, you will NEVER be Japanese, ever.

For the first part; my sentiments exactly.

for the second part; hopefully those that are hoping to "become" Japanese will come here and get to a point where they will, not find that it's impossible and give up but, no longer want to be Japanese. One of the best things that has come of me living in Japan is that it has taught me to love, appreciate and see the beauty in America. Maybe this will happen for the folks that dislike their own country?

Seems to me we got some aggressive males on this post.

Tsk tsk tsk. Them's fightin words y'll are using. lol Japanese people certainly wouldn't approve.

methanol Wrote:The modes of relationship you and I are accustomed to do not exist here. No amount of immersion and cultural adjustment will change this fact.
[...]
You will only find them with other foreigners, or with those Japanese people who are lucky enough to have been blessed with experience studying abroad in a country like the USA or Australia.

Part 1
I read methanol's post and have to agree with most of the information he imparted. This one right here is a real gem and basically the core of his post. I think if you attempt to understand this idea upon your arrival in Japan you will have more success making "friends".

And herein lies the semantic issue. I think several of the Japan-contributors on this thread are using the English word "friend" to explain the concept of a western friend and to say how very difficult this is in Japan, because they are not western. Of course a lot of us make Japanese "friends" in the Japanese way. However, the word does not mean the same thing in this case.

Now, is this a problem? It goes by a case by case basis. Personally for me it's been a problem sometimes, but most times not. I enjoy my Japanese "friends" even if sometime I am annoyed at them for not fulfilling their roles. However in other ways they are more reliable/different in a good way than western friends. That's because they aren't friends. They are 友達 or 仲間 of varying degrees and descriptors.

In conclusion. Yes, you will make friends. They will be divided into three groups. Friendships with westerners that are equal to the English meaning of the word "friend". 間柄 with Japanese people that is their equivalent of the English idea of "friend" which you will learn through experience (and enjoy). And relationships with Japanese who are multi-cultural and open, which will be some of the weirdest experiences you've ever had. Why is that you ask? It's hilarious, but a lot of these people don't have a nailed-down definition of friendship levels in the west, rather a few isolated experiences and a couple books/articles/conversations/assumptions/stereotypes which leads them to share some of the funniest things with you. Three weeks ago I had a a 45 year old woman (divorcee) giggle uncontrollably for a minute straight because she just told me she has a boyfriend online (She never told anybody in her life for 4 years, not her closest friend or parents. Relationships being private/secret are one of the standard themes here, more on that later*.) She said she could say those words in English but they wouldn't even come out of her mouth in Japanese. You're in for some fun times :p

Part 2
*Handy tip concerning privacy number 1: gross generalization edition
In Japan, relationships are secret till you are engaged, but if you go to the clinic you have to give the results to your boss who will tell your whole office.
*Handy gairaigo tip 1: ﾌﾟﾗｲﾊﾞｼｰ
In Japan this is used to describe anything you don't want to talk about; usually things such as what you did last night, where you went on the weekend, who you are dating, or the inside of your house. Has no relationship (that I've found) with things like information privacy, shopping habits to consumers, online security, or medical things.

Part 3
As Diana said, don't let anything in here stop you from coming. Just work on researching new things which you've discovered so you are prepared to make your experience work for you. It also helps, unless you've experienced it before, to be aware of the fundamental principals of culture shock. They are real and I've done it 5 times now. Basically, it goes like this: HIGH, LOW, HIGh, LOw, HIgh, Low, High, low, high.. see the trend? waves. The best thing for the low cycles (which you will experience, nobody doesn't, however intensity and awareness-of-ones-own-emotions-and-actions vary by person) is to put your feelings down in words and actively hunt out a positive experience (which is pretty easy here, since all you have to do is walk into a bar and use chopsticks to get 10 drinking buddies who will praise your hashi skill and Japanese all night).

Part 4
Back to this point by Jorge:

Quote:People make generalizations all the time. I am sure this is one. In general people will think of Muslim Arabs as ignorant fundamentalists and yet, my best friends here are Muslim Arabs and nothing like ignorant fundamentalists. There is all kind of people. Some are just different and can't be tagged "mainstream". The same could be said of many other minorities and/or ethnicity groups. I am sure there are Japanese people that embrace and proudly represent their culture but are also aware of its faults and try to distinguish themselves or at least break that facade the best they can without hurting or disrespecting anyone.

Generalizations work better when speaking of Japanese because they themselves work so hard to conform everybody. It's a pressure that everybody here puts on everybody else, and you'll feel it when you get here and attune to it. It's actually kind of fun when you do attune to it, because you can observe the Japanese perform actions subconsciously, and you understand the reason they are doing it when they can't even see it (it's too natural for them). You can also choose to act the same or play your "foreign card" and work outside the box. It gives a lot of freedom to dip in and out of the conforming change. However some forces are too strong to resist and you will be changed permanently before you know it! (not in a good or bad way, but in a Japanese way)

Almost everybody in Japan works hard to fit into the definitions that define what their personality is supposed to be like, and those that don't are encouraged by society to kill themselves (and usually do). So while it is not a homogeneous culture per se, it's a very predictable one. Everybody should do what you expect them to do, and that's the way they like it. Here's a fun story I use to illustrate this.

I studied math in college and was transferred to a speciality high school to head up a part of their Super Science program. (aside: The first thing I did was convince them to stop using the acronym for Advanced Super Science (ASS) on all their paperwork. Now they just say Advanced SS) We were having meetings to determine the curriculum and it finally came down to a decision for me to teach physics, math, or biology in English. The tone of this years program prep had been "taihen, so much work, we must all be tired" standard Japanese plug-along. It was soon to change. As I had studied math in college they (the other program tanto s) had had many conversations (behind my back of course) and decided that I would choose math and physics to teach -- physics because it is math based and had been done last year thus 80% of the work was done. When the time came in the middle of one meeting to choose the subjects and paused, then stated outright "I'd like to do Biology.. to omoimasu." The dead silence that followed and the almost painful absence of "yappari" had me worried for ten long seconds. Then there was a response, which followed with allowing me to launch full fledged into my defense of this idea; explaining things such as continuing education, stretching my own knowledge, variety in the program, the quality of the bio teachers at the school (didn't mention the complete lack of interest in physics I had observed in the physics classes vs. the bio classes while doing prep for this). By the end of my diatribe (it really was one) a glimmer I had never seen was in all the teachers eyes, and they continued to fire each other up about his for the rest of the meeting, week, month and eventually we blew that biology curriculum out of the water and had one of the best years the program had had recently.

When you do an unpredictable thing in Japan there are two common outcomes. One is instant negation, sucking through teeth, saying it's impossible or passive nodding in agreement with no intention in the slightest to do anything of the sort (i.e. baldfaced lying). The other outcome is an almost juvenile giddiness, as they go against all their training and feel for a brief moment like they are back in elementary school with their whole shining future of unimagined, uncontrolled possibilities in front of them. "oh my gosh" they think, or feel, "we can just... decide to do something different, and then do it! It's so easy and breathtakingly exciting to innovate!"

So as you can see, the ability to predict is a necessary one in Japan, and thus everybody is good at it and everybody tries their best to be predictable. Those who can't are fondly referred to as KY or ostracized. Fortunately (or unfortunately?) as foreigners we are not exempt from this process, as it isn't something they can actively control. It's more of a trait that is nailed into them by society from the day they are born.

Part 5
"But how can they be that similar to each other? It's not like we both aren't human!"
There's real simple explanations for this, there is no need to go into genetics, astrology, or anything silly like that. In your culture and mine the parents play a large role in raising a child. In Japan the school is a more powerful force of culture. They are trained through their education system in how to be Japanese. After that, through their workplace by the sempai system. This is another reason it's hard to fit in right away, because there are no "acceptable" free radicals in Japanese society and a foreigner has a lot of training to make up. It's doable, adults learn much faster than children.