danieldesu Wrote:

jorgebucaran Wrote:So more cuties than uglies or viceversa?

Are you just trying to confirm that you are learning the right language?

Haha, very funny. I know I am learning the right one, but this confirmation is not bad at all.

blackmacros Wrote:I'm also kind of wondering that. You are always hearing about how working in Japan seriously sucks; that they require your soul. Is there any truth to this?

Very interesting and I think this easily merges with the current topic.

nac_est Wrote:Nice thread. Let me drop a question (I've never been to Japan yet):
How much "real" is the problem of crazy working schedules that eat your life? Is it really as widespread as it sounds? And how does it compare/balance with the benefits you guys are listing?
What I mean is, all the good things that have been described are very cool, but if I get no free time to enjoy them, is it really worth it?

(I need good arguments, because I might have to convince my girlfriend to move to Japan with me in the future)

Hehe, the crazy working hours are very real. When I worked in Tokyo for a while, we used to have SCHEDULED meetings at 7~8pm almost every day, and sometimes even leaving at 9pm seemed unfitting.

The strange thing is it felt like people didn't work extremely hard/a lot - they just worked damned late, and recouped time by sleeping at their desk during the daytime. Go figure.

But anyway, Japan is an amazing place, great food, shopping, fashion, beautiful girls, beautiful places to visit, ultra modern mixed with old, incredibly populated, unique.

I don't wish to work myself to death, but I would like to at least spend a few years living and working in Japan. Sigh. Maybe a gaijin company operating in Japan would be less like that? I'm doing commerce in Uni atm and will do a masters in law (my Uni switched to offering law as a postgrad degree only as of last year, gah) so maybe I could get a job in some form of Japanese/West legal interaction.

EDIT: Sorry I don't really mean to derail the conversation. Please return to your previously scheduled discussion of how awesome Japan is :-)

Ah, I loved the public transport in Japan. I particularly loved the 新幹線, because while it wasn't as fast as an airplane, it made up for it in being much less hassle to get on board (no obsessive-compulsive security), and it had far fewer delays. And it was cheaper, too... but not a whole lot.

I was only over there for 5 weeks, but I managed to hit Okazaki, Nagoya, Kyoto, Nara, Hiroshima/Miyajima, Fukuoka/Hakata, Osaka, Nagano, Sendai/Matsushima, and Tokyo. All of that and no car. It was great. Didn't miss my car one bit. I'd think if I moved there long-term, though, I'd eventually get a small car, just because you're going to need one every now and then.

I live in the Southeastern US, so public transport here is kind of "meh," at best. We have a great bus system in my town, but that's about it.

And yeah, I concur about onsens. They rock.

Even just plain old baths are pretty cool. They had a really nice bath at the hotel I stayed at in Nara. They had scalding hot water, bubbling scalding hot water, freezing cold water you splashed on yourself to induce a heart attack after all the hot water, a lukewarm water pool you could swim in, and a sauna that I swear was run by cannibals trying to eat hotel guests by catching them unawares. o_o (Hottest sauna I've ever been in.)

Oh, and the toilets are interesting. Push the buttons and see what happens!

I found the food was also really good, but that might have been because I was hiking so much and was hungry all the time. Or it could be because the food there is just really good. Especially if you hit the depachika right around closing time and get your dinner for cheap....

For the most part, people were nice to me.

Yeah, being able to walk the streets feeling pretty safe is a weird feeling, but very nice. I still watch the NHK news and hear about random people doing some pretty nasty things over there, so I wonder about that... but it's an order of magnitude less than over here.

But it's one thing to be a tourist and a totally different thing to live there.

blackmacros Wrote:I'm also kind of wondering that. You are always hearing about how working in Japan seriously sucks; that they require your soul. Is there any truth to this?

This is true of all competitive city jobs, regardless of country. One of my relatives worked at a London consultancy firm for ten years; each day she left the house at 7am and got back after 10pm (not to mention that she was expected to attend business functions every weekend). If you want a highly paid job, either become self employed or expect to work long hours.

captal Wrote:

Wally Wrote:If you have a lot of money, Japan is wonderful. If you don't, Japan can be tough. Now before everyone jumps up and down and says that this is true of just about anywhere, I'll start by admitting that of course that's right. But I think Japan amplifies that basic truth, somehow.

Agreed

Could either of you (or someone else) please elaborate upon this? I was under the impression that taxes in Japan were extremely low and that it was possible to live relatively comfortably on a tight budget. What is especially "tough" about Japan compared to other places for those with less money? I remember reading a debunking-the-myths style book which said that 90% of Japanese identify themselves as "middle class".

harhol Wrote:

blackmacros Wrote:I'm also kind of wondering that. You are always hearing about how working in Japan seriously sucks; that they require your soul. Is there any truth to this?

This is true of all competitive city jobs, regardless of country. One of my relatives worked at a London consultancy firm for ten years; each day she left the house at 7am and got back after 10pm (not to mention that she was expected to attend business functions every weekend). If you want a highly paid job, either become self employed or expect to work long hours.

or join the military as an officer and pray they send you to Japan with free housing etc....

Hashiriya Wrote:or join the military as an officer and pray they send you to Japan with free housing etc....

Join the military; travel to exotic places, meet interesting people, and kill them

When I joined the Army 20 years ago they gave me the option of
#1- $3,000 cash
#2- $17,000 college fund
#3- choice of where I wanted to be stationed

With the whole Iraq thing, I doubt they give #3 any more

For Japan, the US Navy and Air Force are your best choices if you're trying to get stationed in Japan. Even then, there's that whole "Needs of the Navy (Air Force)" thing that means even "promises" are at times a one way street. Plus, Japan is a popular operating region, so there are limits on how long one can stay stationed there (part of the reason I'm in Africa at the moment).

However, the financial benefits of the military have drastically improved. Put it this way: If you're married, join the US military and get stationed in California, expect to get a salary over 40,000 dollars a year starting out (basic pay, housing pay, food) in addition to benefits that are pay related (30 days paid vacation days per year, tax benefits, health insurance) all pretty much right out of high school. Much better than when I started out 15 years ago with about 15,000 a year. Before anyone complains, I was stationed in California so had to use housing rates for that area.

Problem with all that. If you're like me, have 15 years in the military, wife, child, no college degree and get stationed in Japan with good financial benefits (about 80,000 a year in pay) you're on a US base which is not Japan. Plus you can be on a ship which is not in Japan all the time. So you're still pulling the All Japanese All the Time tactics with more restrictions placed on you. Plus may have to take orders for a year or more away from your family just for the chance (not guarantee) to move back to Japan even if your wife still lives there.

Yeah, so don't join the US military with Japan in mind. It'll likely work in your favor, but the chance is not 100%.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

captal Wrote:The public transit is outstanding (though I've only lived in the US and Australia where it is sub-par)

You would have a different opinion had you ever lived in Germany. My main draw: Way too expensive.

The public transit in Germany DOES kick Japans in the butt. I could literally walk to any street corner in the morning, and end up on any other street corner in the country that day without understanding a single word of German.

harhol Wrote:

captal Wrote:

Wally Wrote:If you have a lot of money, Japan is wonderful. If you don't, Japan can be tough. Now before everyone jumps up and down and says that this is true of just about anywhere, I'll start by admitting that of course that's right. But I think Japan amplifies that basic truth, somehow.

Agreed

Could either of you (or someone else) please elaborate upon this? I was under the impression that taxes in Japan were extremely low and that it was possible to live relatively comfortably on a tight budget. What is especially "tough" about Japan compared to other places for those with less money? I remember reading a debunking-the-myths style book which said that 90% of Japanese identify themselves as "middle class".

It comes down to effort. Just like the US, if you try real hard, you can live cheap. If you don't try real hard, you can't. Grocery stores here are insanely expensive. Typical western foods are really expensive. So you eat Japanese food and shop at marts, corner stores, and the discount supers. If you want to live like an obaasan, collect vegetables from the wild. Walk and bike everywhere, even if it takes a few extra hours. Make your bento everyday and never eat out. If you can do all these things you can live cheaply.

However, a lot of people who do these things have a housewife slave who spends morning to night shopping and making food. Japanese food takes a while to prepare if you are doing the whole 'small portion size' thing. Who has time to walk to the store and back if you get off work at 7pm? Everything is open during "housewife" hours usually (i.e. 9-4/5) so I can't shop at any of the marts and corner stores.

You could live totally unhealthy off dollar store prepacked food, but that's not good for your longevity. The best route is just to cave. Drive to the supermarkets, but compromise and buy loooots of vegetables and fish (it's cheap). Buy the bento everyday, but get the company-order bento for 3 bucks that's packed full of nasty tasting crazy healthy piles of cold soggy veggies and fried :omething::. Eat rice with natto on top of it for breakfast, forGET cereal even existed. Stop drinking milk while your at it.

As far as clothes go it's pretty easy to be cheap and fashionable. Used stores here can get you nice stuff for under 10 bucks. Second hand stores are really handy for anything else you could want. It's all about convenience really. You have to spend a lot more time hunting it down and shopping if you want to save a buck.

Except for manga. Here's my sad story from yesterday. I went to a bookstore and bought the latest copy of whatever it was, walked to the other side of the store (which was the used section) and saw it for 3 dollars less. Doh. Entertainment is fairly easy to get a hold of used, as it's popular to buy it and sell it after you are done.

Transportation. The public transit here isn't cheap. Want to go to Tokyo from Hachinohe? 8 hours for 80 dollars on an overnight bus, or 3 hours for 300 dollars. The next nearest city is 10-12 bucks on the normal train, 70 on the bullet. Buses are 2 dollars and up per trip. It's all still cheaper than owning a car though (with it's mandatory 1,000 a year tax). Unless there are 2 of you. Then a car is cheaper.

People who live cheaply are typically in the countryside, have cheap access to food, don't travel conveniently, and have easy-to-support hobbies. Other than that it takes really strong discipline and time management to eek out a cheap budget if you are the only one in the household and doing it all yourself.

welldone101 Wrote:

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

captal Wrote:The public transit is outstanding (though I've only lived in the US and Australia where it is sub-par)

You would have a different opinion had you ever lived in Germany. My main draw: Way too expensive.

The public transit in Germany DOES kick Japans in the butt. I could literally walk to any street corner in the morning, and end up on any other street corner in the country that day without understanding a single word of German.

Can someone comment on this? I have been in Germany and France and yes, those countries have awesome public transportation but geez I was hoping Japan was more awesome.

I found it much easier to live cheaply in Osaka than I did in Edmonton. Rent is cheaper, restaurants are cheaper (assuming you don't go for steak), groceries are cheaper (assuming you don't shop at デパ地下) entertainment is cheaper, travel is cheaper (assuming I didn't have a 乗り放題 student pass in Edmonton) and way more convenient. You of course have to make lifestyle changes. Trying to live in a mini-America/West bubble will of course drive costs up. Live without Budweiser beer and drink happoshu.

Travel might cost more than other countries which have decent public transit, but Canada isn't one of those countries. If you're going more than an hour's distance there simply isn't a public transit option in any Canadian city I've lived in. You have to rent a car, take greyhound, bum a ride, etc. Travel within the city is slightly more expensive in Japan than Canada for longer distances (25-50 cents, big deal), but incomparably more convenient. It's also much cheaper for shorter distances that can be as low as 150en.

If I lived in the 田舎 it would have been even more cheap! My apartment was a 3 year old building on the 環状線 (3 minute walk), 10 minutes by surface train to Umeda, 10 minutes by subway to Namba/Shinsaibashi, 3 minute walk to Osaka park/castle. Essentially it was the best location in all of Osaka to live in terms of convenience. It was still cheaper than any 70yr old apartment 1hr (by bus, changing multiple times) from downtown Edmonton.

Where I am now in Victoria is equally expensive. Most apartments anywhere near the city are >$1000/month. They are also mostly nearly 100yrs old.

Just throwing in that I found a second hand manga store (in Osaka) with truckloads of stuff. 70 yen each!

Thanks for the info welldone & Jarvik

Interesting that $80 for an eight-hour train journey is considered expensive. A one-way ticket from Dumfries to Sheffield in the UK costs around £50 without a rail card (I used to make this journey for university three times a year). The journey is roughly three hours long and includes a changeover where you can expect to wait for up to an hour. The train is usually packed for the majority of the journey, which is a nightmare if you've got a lot of luggage.

Also interesting that a $2 bus ticket is considered expensive. It used to cost me £3.10 for a one-way trip into the city centre, roughly a 40-minute journey, and that was four years ago with costs rising every couple of months. Getting the bus from the city centre to one of my friend's houses used to cost £1.90, and the bus journey lasted less than five minutes!

My university rent (in Sheffield, officially the cheapest major city in the UK) was £60 per week for a five-person house, and that was considered pretty cheap at the time. Most people I knew paid £70 and above. And this was not luxury city housing: a cold tiny attic room at the top of a hill, microscopic kitchen & bathroom, bad plumbing, limited living space and about fifteen minutes' walk from the city centre. On top of that we had to pay all utilities. I've heard that you can get a decent (if small) one-person apartment in central Tokyo for 65,000¥, which just seems insanely cheap to me. Is this true?

I'm a pretty lean guy (9st) and don't have any particular desire to eat at restaurants, so spiralling food costs shouldn't be a problem. My major worry is fitness. Currently I spend an hour a day walking my two dogs, which gives me more than enough exercise. But I have no idea how I'd be similarly active in the middle of a city without joining a gym, and I've always found them to be pretty pointless and overpriced. A martial arts club perhaps? I guess that's one of those things you work out if/when you eventually get there.

Fashion & entertainment are kinda common sense: if you can't afford it, don't buy it. Otherwise, go nuts. My spending habits are pretty frugal as it is so I can't imagine blowing all my money on clothes & hookers. I don't drive as yet, but I plan to learn, more as a matter of practicality than any burning desire to hit the open road.

[Well this post has lasted longer than I expected... ]

But yeah... I'd be interested to know anything about average rental prices, what you get for your money, etc. Not necessarily Tokyo either.

jorgebucaran Wrote:

welldone101 Wrote:

Evil_Dragon Wrote:You would have a different opinion had you ever lived in Germany. My main draw: Way too expensive.

The public transit in Germany DOES kick Japans in the butt. I could literally walk to any street corner in the morning, and end up on any other street corner in the country that day without understanding a single word of German.

Can someone comment on this? I have been in Germany and France and yes, those countries have awesome public transportation but geez I was hoping Japan was more awesome.

Yes, I'd like to comment. Public transport in Germany and France sucks. Hehe. Well, at least compared to where I live. When it comes to public transport, Switzerland totally pwns both Germany and France. Straight in ya face! Muahaha! Dunno bout Japan...

harhol: Tokyo, Osaka, and most other major Japanese cities are very walkable. The sheer amount of walking most Japanese people do probably contributes to the low rate of obesity. To save a bit on train fare I usually walked any distance up to about 3 train stops from my apartment. When I was going to university there I rode my bike 16km/day in very hilly terrain (my legs were super ムキムキ). Due to the location of my house for the first semester (inaka) it was faster than taking the train those 16km (and free). When I moved downtown I still had to walk 30 minutes up a steep hill from the nearest station to the campus.

If you are going to a university in Japan (I never read the whole thread so I don't know who is going for what reasons) you can easily join any of a wide variety of athletic clubs or circles. I had no interest in further torturing myself so I just joined a live music club and played concerts (エレキギター).

For rent, my super-convenient ideally located new apartment was about 6.4man/month total, not including gas or electricity. I shared it with my (then)girlfriend so I ended up only paying 32000en/month with homecooked meals .

There is a "secret" a surprising number of foreigners never discover in Japan: ticket stores. Never buy your tickets direct from JR etc, buy them from a ticket shop. I took a luxury bus from Osaka to Tokyo for 4000en (about half price). I also saved like 500en on a train ticket from Osaka to Himeji (1/3 off). A ticket from my station in Osaka (森之宮) to Kansai airport saved like 200en. etc

Also take advantage of student discounts. My stay in Hiroshima was only 4000en/night with breakfast for two people at a nice brand new business hotel thanks to one. I could request a form through my school which I'd show to the 窓口 at the station to get discounts on Shinkansen tickets too. I think they were like half price. There is also of course the 学割定期券.

jorgebucaran Wrote:

welldone101 Wrote:

Evil_Dragon Wrote:You would have a different opinion had you ever lived in Germany. My main draw: Way too expensive.

The public transit in Germany DOES kick Japans in the butt. I could literally walk to any street corner in the morning, and end up on any other street corner in the country that day without understanding a single word of German.

Can someone comment on this? I have been in Germany and France and yes, those countries have awesome public transportation but geez I was hoping Japan was more awesome.

Well, it is good, but it is also really expensive. While in Germany's high speed trains (and probably those of France and many European countries as well) you pay only 50% when buying your tickets about one month in advance, there is no such thing for the Japanese Shinkansen. Traveling can be really expensive.

Also I doubt any train in Germany, even in Berlin or Cologne, gets as crowded as the Yamanote line. Hell on earth.

I do love the Suica though.

Quote:Also take advantage of student discounts.

If it wasn't for the discounts, I'd probably be broke by now.

Wally Wrote:Personal hygiene is outstanding, generally. Women tend to wear perfume, and men often wear cologne. Maybe that's it?

No way. Sure they bathe daily, but deoderant is not as widely used as you'd imagine. May also have something to do with only showering at night. This was a big surprise for me especially amongst my female co-workers in the summertime.

And also, a surprisingly large amount of people have serious dental/oral issues. The state of the teeth of some of my students is near child abuse.

ambassadog Wrote:

Wally Wrote:Personal hygiene is outstanding, generally. Women tend to wear perfume, and men often wear cologne. Maybe that's it?

No way. Sure they bathe daily, but deoderant is not as widely used as you'd imagine. May also have something to do with only showering at night. This was a big surprise for me especially amongst my female co-workers in the summertime.

And also, a surprisingly large amount of people have serious dental/oral issues. The state of the teeth of some of my students is near child abuse.

Having perfectly straight teeth that are white as a refrigerator door is a mostly North American ideal. Yaeba is actually considered attractive by most. Most people in Japan with seriously train-wrecked teeth usually get braces if they can afford them though. Deodorant isn't as widely used as the west, but most Japanese people do not have the kinds of bacteria present that makes sweat smell in the first place. My ex never used it and she never smelled bad even after not showering for a few days (camping). My current girlfriend is the same. Neither uses perfume either (I think it stinks). Of course there are those who do have them and do stink if they don't use a product. The cramped trains makes it seem worse than it is I suppose. Diet also plays a major factor. After I'm in country for a few months eating a Japanese diet I don't need to use deodorant as much either. I do shower twice a day (or more) during the hot & humid summer months though.

On the topic of this thread: I wouldn't try to convince anyone that Japan is the place to be. I'd rather there be as few nihon-girai foreigners as possible in Japan - only those that want to be there of their own accord and try to integrate.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I wouldn't try to convince anyone that Japan is the place to be. I'd rather there be as few nihon-girai foreigners as possible in Japan - only those that want to be there of their own accord and try to integrate.

Did you encounter any foreigners living in Japan who were proficient in the language and who also didn't like living there? Because the more I read, the more it seems like these anti-Japanese attitudes are confined to those unable to communicate and/or read.

harhol Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I wouldn't try to convince anyone that Japan is the place to be. I'd rather there be as few nihon-girai foreigners as possible in Japan - only those that want to be there of their own accord and try to integrate.

Did you encounter any foreigners living in Japan who were proficient in the language and who also didn't like living there? Because the more I read, the more it seems like these anti-Japanese attitudes are confined to those unable to communicate and/or read.

There are some, like Debito Arudou or that crazy ex-journalist that thinks the yakuza are out to kill him. In general it's bitter/immature English teachers though.

theres seems to be as many negative things written as good in this read. but tbh isnt every country the same (i speak from a developed country perspective)

if you watch british tv news atm all you will here is teenage stabbings, pregnancy and corruption in the house of commons. does that ring true for the whole country .. no it most certainly doesn't.
the living on a budget thing.. i currently earn the hugely fantastic minimum wage £5.73 an hour.. do the conversion for your own currencies and find out it isnt so fantastic. but i can survive with money to spare to spend on random crap. (it works out converted to yen, half of what a ALT earns roughly, so if you think there wages suck.. you should come work here)

british transport system, lol. seriously. the buses are never on time, the trains are a joke, it costs me from where i live to london, if i was to just turn up at the station and buy a ticket £100 return for a 4 hour train journey going straight south, no switches.

Japan may not be the greatest place in the world, im sure there are negative, but theres positives too. Just like every other developed country. Its how you deal with what you have,

I've never been to Japan, but after next year i will be spending a year in osaka on university exchange. My opinions may be differant then. But i can't see apart from the cultural differances how much differant it would be to living in England. The positive and negatives might be differant but im pretty sure they'd balance themselves out.

and as for the teeth thing.. hey that isnt nice saying that about us although i wasnt aware there was a term for the Japanese crooked teeth thing, so i learned something new today by accident

Evil_Dragon Wrote:I do love the Suica though.

Indeed. The Suica is very nice. Have they expanded it to any more cities? I used it in Sendai and in Tokyo, and I *think* you can use it in Osaka, but have they bothered to expand it further yet? That was very handy, because I hate 10 yen coins almost as much as I hate 1 and 5 yen coins.

It's not a matter of expanding it, it's a matter of partnering with local rail-company specific IC cards. Pretty much every rail company uses their own. Osaka's for example is ICOCA (on JR-West). 2008 brought a lot more interoperability, but you still can't get an IC 定期券 that operates across different companies.

SUICA is JR-East, so it should be usable in any area covered by them (Kanto, Sendai, Niigata, except old inaka stations that don't have IC reader equipped 改札口), plus whoever they've partnered with.