Futureblues- I know you're coming off a bit bitter at times in your posts, but I completely understand the message you're trying to convey.

This whole thread is really making me consider moving back to Australia- I had more fun, I had more friends, the weather was better... you all have provided a really valuable perspective that you can't find anywhere else. We've heard good and bad, ups and downs and we all have to come to the same conclusion. For me, I can't imagine living in a land where I don't have plenty of friends that I can just hang out with, or play volleyball with, or do whatever. Part of it is because Japanese people my age don't have time, or if they do have time it's only on the weekends. I also can't stand always being on the outside- it's not even about hearing how good my Japanese is or how well I use chopsticks- it's deeper than that. It's trying to be a dog in a group of cats, or visa versa- no one understands each other. Even if I sound like a cat and start to think like a cat, I'm still not, and never can be, a cat.

I love a lot about this country, but for me, I don't think it is somewhere I can stay a long time.

Erubey Wrote:Nobody else finds it weird how everyone is trying to describe complex social situations with small examples? It doesn't matter what culture you are talking about, there will always be exceptions and people are just different. Every individual.

I just see a lot of confusion and restating interaction scenarios to no avail.
...Just talk to japanese people and treat them like any other person. You find out what they're like and how they avoid, befriend, lie, trust, etc you over time. Yo don't have to put a meaning to everything they do. Maybe I have a different perspective here, but even the statements users are making about Americans, are I find, not true at at all and I can think of scores of exceptions to every statement about them and how they lie or see in B&W. I'm not American so I suppose I have an advantage on this because I interact with them but from outside.

You are right and I think my posts have been aparty to this though it was not my intention. I personally feel really annoyed when I hear, `Japanese are SO_____` kind of comments. Of course, all a society is is a group of individuals that live and work together. There are no such things as hard and fast rules. But, I do think there are patterns or trends that occur in one society more than in others. To make such a sweeping statement as `Japanese hate conflict` would of course not be correct and you could find thousands of Japanese living in Japan that haven`t been `westernized`that don`t mind conflict and you could also find thousands of Americans living in America that absolutely hate it and avoid it at all costs. But, compartively speaking, Japanese as a whole tend to dislike conflict more than Americans. That was what I was trying to say in my posts.

The best place in the world. Japan?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zurgently/1929688363/
I would say so

bodhisamaya Wrote:The best place in the world. Japan?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zurgently/1929688363/
I would say so

Haha, I had that Shochu that's at the bottom (which I think the uploader is mistaking for soju). It's satsuma-imo-jouchu, smells super strong but isn't too great (since it only costs about 1200Y for 1L).

thistime Wrote:[...]
To make such a sweeping statement as `Japanese hate conflict` would of course not be correct and you could find thousands of Japanese living in Japan that haven`t been `westernized`that don`t mind conflict and you could also find thousands of Americans living in America that absolutely hate it and avoid it at all costs. But, compartively speaking, Japanese as a whole tend to dislike conflict more than Americans. That was what I was trying to say in my posts.

While that is true, your statement dug at a deeper point which was how Japanese society treats people that like conflict. Sure I know some people who like conflict in the states, most of them keep moving up the food chain pretty quickly. I know two people who like conflict in Japan. One of them (who just made it from JHS to SHS) was transferred from the 3rd best school in the city to the 2nd worst in the prefecture as punishment for not doing as he was told (he's in his 40s btw, not some 20 year old). The other one was a co-worker that was always antagonistic to the other teachers in his cohort, and they've cut him out of the discussion. Any decisions made on curriculum, classes, anything... he may be at the meeting but the decision is made afterwords in the hallway when he's not around.

I stayed out of the discussion about whether or not all this is orientalism or what not. Talking to my Bangladesh-parents-raised-in-America friend who is here with me, he notices a lot of commonality between Japan and his parents / relatives culture.. a lot of which was passed on to him. He accepts as natural a lot of the things that drive westerners out. So whatever you call it, there is a divide between how diverse societies function and there is a tangible line between the Eastern mind and the Western mind. Given that, there was a scientific study I read a few weeks ago that worked to switch people from Western-mode to Eastern-mode and back again. It worked just fine. So it's not a difference in humanity, it's just a difference in training. One that can be taught or reversed in a short while. There are many people in the states who fit right in here and many people in Japan who fit right in there. They just aren't the majority.

Just caught onto this thread. I'm surprised by how much negativity there is on a forum which is exclusively for Japanese learners.

I work in a 100% Japanese company and although I'm different, I'm accepted. I enjoy living and working here a lot.

The work ethic in Japan is a separate issue I think. I made a blog post about it which was quite popular. You might want to check it out:

http://wrightak.blogspot.com/2009/04/mic...le-on.html

I think the basic issue is that it's harder in Japan than it is in other countries. That doesn't mean that it's not worth it. I think people who use statements like "you will never" are wrong. You can and you will if you really put some effort into it.

What I find interesting in this thread is this "The West" concept that seems to have been invented specifically for the purpose of being used as a contrasting point to the Japanese examples.

It's like suddenly we share the same mentality in all Western countries. Not very realistic. But maybe this topic is all about? Gross generalizations from a few specific examples?

bodhisamaya Wrote:The best place in the world. Japan?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zurgently/1929688363/
I would say so

Now if only beer sold for reasonable prices I would never want to leave.

The machine around the corner from where I used to live in Nara had beer for 100yen. It was really bad beer though. Similar to Budweiser.

bodhisamaya Wrote:The machine around the corner from where I used to live in Nara had beer for 100yen. It was really bad beer though. Similar to Budweiser.

Egad! You mean it was a kind of gustatorial waterboarding?

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:The best place in the world. Japan?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zurgently/1929688363/
I would say so

Now if only beer sold for reasonable prices I would never want to leave.

Well you can compensate that with the money you save when getting free water and tea at Japanese restaurants ;-) . I would clearly trade higher beer prices for free water at the restaurant

Free water? The only place I ever saw a water fountain in Japan was at the Nara Library. Those Pocari Sweat water machines must make large campaign contributions! I never could understand the appeal of buying bottled sweat. I almost tried to finance buying a car from No Loan bank though. Sounded like a challenge to me.

Proxx Wrote:

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:The best place in the world. Japan?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zurgently/1929688363/
I would say so

Now if only beer sold for reasonable prices I would never want to leave.

Well you can compensate that with the money you save when getting free water and tea at Japanese restaurants ;-) . I would clearly trade higher beer prices for free water at the restaurant

Eww, water..

Huh? I've never paid for water in a restaurant or bar in Canada or the US.

Yeah, but we in Germany do have to pay for (mineral) water in restaurants :-(
Nobody here thinks even about drinking tap water at a restaurant.
But on the other side beer is really cheap compared to Japan. If we wouldn't have the law that at least one non-alcoholic drink has to be cheaper than an alcoholic one, you could probably find beer sometimes to be the cheapest choice.

EDIT: No, we don't drink beer every day or for breakfast. Actually I was a bit surprised how popular beer is in Japan, especially how many women seem to drink (at least some) beer.

bodhisamaya Wrote:The best place in the world. Japan?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zurgently/1929688363/
I would say so

Creepy Baader-Meinhof moment there: I only came across the saké kanji in Heisig about ten minutes ago. Of course the picture also demonstrates just how important it is to not take his keywords too seriously... unless vending machines in Japan routinely have "boulevard" and "roof" writtten on them?

Oh and by the way, you can order tap water at a pub in Britain if you want, but expect a death stare if you do.

harhol Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:The best place in the world. Japan?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zurgently/1929688363/
I would say so

Creepy Baader-Meinhof moment there: I only came across the saké kanji in Heisig about ten minutes ago. Of course the picture also demonstrates just how important it is to not take his keywords too seriously... unless vending machines in Japan routinely have "boulevard" and "roof" writtten on them?

Oh and by the way, you can order tap water at a pub in Britain if you want, but expect a death stare if you do.

HARHOL! THANK YOU!

I read an article about that around 3 years ago and thought it was really cool, and then promptly forgot what it was called.

I have been searching (in vain) off and on for those 3 years to remember what it [Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon] was called, or find the article I read.

Good news for ESL teachers: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...6&from=rss

I know that bumping is not allowed but I just read through this whole thread and I'd like to see it active again. Maybe a few newer members will share their opinions and experiences.

Sorry for the bump.

This thread deserves a bump, as it's an excellent insight into the realities of living in Japan; the good AND the bad.

It also shows how deluded people can get about the magical Land of the Rising Sun; notice how almost all of the people defending Japan from negative comments had never actually been there

I wonder if the OP or any others have changed their opinion 2 years on?

This week a typhoon passed through Japan. I watched on the news as water turned at least one of the roads in Wakayama prefecture into a river you would need a boat to navigate through. Not sure why, but the myth of Noah's Ark came to mind. I grew up in America's Bible Belt where that story is taken literally.

It is so nice to live in a country where the idea of one man collecting all 10,000,000 species of land animal, male and female, and fitting them onto a boat; Then dispersing them to each respective continent on the planet where their unique traits would allow them to survive the local climate and conditions, would never be thought of as more than children's story.

Can you imagine explaining to a Japanese person that adults where you are from accept such a thing as historical truth? Sadly, most of the people I grew up around do. Even the state's (Arkansas) governor and presidential candidate does >_<

Funny you mention that, 'Evan Almighty' was just playing on TV here. What a bland movie.

Only a 40 year old virgin would be picked by God in this age. Odd how Noah was one of the few figures from the Old Testament with only one wife.

aphasiac Wrote:This thread deserves a bump, as it's an excellent insight into the realities of living in Japan; the good AND the bad.

It also shows how deluded people can get about the magical Land of the Rising Sun; notice how almost all of the people defending Japan from negative comments had never actually been there

I wonder if the OP or any others have changed their opinion 2 years on?

No, the negative comments in this thread generally seem as small-minded, petty, and stereotype heavy as before, as if written mostly by prejudiced people who went to Japan and had bad experiences as their foreign sensibilities were forced on Japan and rejected. The other comments, by a range of people, seem reasonable and well thought out, by people with sound logic and practical experience, regardless of whether they've been to Japan or not.

nest0r Wrote:No, the negative comments in this thread generally seem as small-minded, petty, and stereotype heavy as before, as if written mostly by prejudiced people who went to Japan and had bad experiences as their foreign sensibilities were forced on Japan and rejected.

Not really. I though posts by 'diana' were pretty balanced - after all, she lived there for many years, studied and worked in many cities, and had an overall positive experience.

The she did chip in with some negatives about Tatemae and friendship , and 2 (or 3?) posters agreed with her? Now you just want to dismiss all their opinions as coincidence, or some kind of conspiracy?! I'm a bit confused by your post to be honest; which posts are "prejudiced" and where do stereotypes play a part?

nest0r Wrote:The other comments, by a range of people, seem reasonable and well thought out, by people with sound logic and practical experience, regardless of whether they've been to Japan or not.

Not really? Seems a lot of people just jumped in and saying that can't be true, and dismissing their experience at their fault somehow; bit like you're doing actually.