thistime Wrote:One of the best things that has come of me living in Japan is that it has taught me to love, appreciate and see the beauty in America. Maybe this will happen for the folks that dislike their own country?

I definitely think this is one of the best things about living abroad. Even you y'all don't come to love your home country, after a while you will be able to pin down the parts of your own culture that you love and treasure.

Diana Wrote:Seems to me we got some aggressive males on this post.

Tsk tsk tsk. Them's fightin words y'll are using. lol Japanese people certainly wouldn't approve.

So true. If the people in this post acted like this in Japan they would be mysteriously unemployed and/or transfered to the Hokkaido branch. Then again the Japanese really misbehave on the internet too.

The vast majority of "aggressive males" in this thread are either those already living in Japan or those who have lived there. Jorge has been aggressive at times but he's been baited and ridiculed so fiercely that I don't blame him. Neither Taylor nor I nor any prospective Japanese residents have shown any aggression towards anybody, even in the face of harsh criticism.

thistime Wrote:

activeaero Wrote:You can't "solve" Japan. Japan is what it is because of what it is.

And finally, you will NEVER be Japanese, ever.

For the first part; my sentiments exactly.

for the second part; hopefully those that are hoping to "become" Japanese will come here and get to a point where they will, not find that it's impossible and give up but, no longer want to be Japanese. One of the best things that has come of me living in Japan is that it has taught me to love, appreciate and see the beauty in America. Maybe this will happen for the folks that dislike their own country?

No one is trying to solve Japan, that is off context and makes no sense, because Japan is not wrong.

For the second part, you are obviously wrong. Other people have became Japanese already, it's called Foreign-born Japanese.

If you love America, good for you. I don't hate it, but I think Japan and its culture is far richer and much more beautiful.

jorgebucaran Wrote:If you love America, good for you. I don't hate it, but I think Japan and its culture is far richer and much more beautiful.

In other words, you prefer Gundam over Transformers ^^

lagwagon555 Wrote:

jorgebucaran Wrote:If you love America, good for you. I don't hate it, but I think Japan and its culture is far richer and much more beautiful.

In other words, you prefer Gundam over Transformers ^^

OMG I actually don't... Hopefully this won't be a problem.

Honestly, my dilemma is with my own country and surroundings. I have lived in Colombia and Ecuador (less than a year in each one) and I can tell you from experience, the people is the same (generally speaking of course, I am different, I've met people that think out of the box too, etc), lack of passion, lack of professionalism, "evil vividness" trying to take advantage of you and will definitely step on you and won't think twice when doing it, the flags are also almost the same.

So I have had enough of "my" culture, which again, I learned it, but I don't have it, my parents well guided me around it and provided me with more sophisticated values and morals, typical of immigrants that had it hard early in their lives.

When deciding where to go and live my adventure I chose Japan, but I also wish to live and try the experience of Korea and China.

***

Check out this video (

) of a "bad teacher" in Venezuela. You may think, oh come on, that's an isolated example, I could find the same for any other country. Well here is the thing, this is like a joke here. People laugh about this, is part of their daily lives, they won't fix it, because they don't think is broken. And examples are actually like rain and rice. Everywhere.

jorgebucaran Wrote:Honestly, my dilemma is with my own country and surroundings. I have lived in Colombia and Ecuador (less than a year in each one) and I can tell you from experience, the people is the same (generally speaking of course, I am different, I've met people that think out of the box too, etc), lack of passion, lack of professionalism, "evil vividness" trying to take advantage of you and will definitely step on you and won't think twice when doing it, the flags are also almost the same.
[...]
Check out this video (

) of a "bad teacher" in Venezuela. You may think, oh come on, that's an isolated example, I could find the same for any other country. Well here is the thing, this is like a joke here. People laugh about this, is part of their daily lives, they won't fix it, because they don't think is broken. And examples are actually like rain and rice. Everywhere.

That last "Everywhere" is literally true. In Japan as well. The faults of one country are not a reason to choose Japan. However, your other reasons (passion towards the idea that is Japan and desire to explore/learn about Japan) are awesome in my mind. Personally I don't think you need a reason at all. I didn't. Maybe I did, it paid a little more than China and they don't kill people for protesting here. But that was it. The fact that you do have a reason and a passion for Japan, and are already cracking on the language will put you in a dandy spot when you arrive.

I also tend to disagree with the people who say you can't become Japanese. In general that's appropriate, you'll never be able to say, walk into a hotel and not get asked for a passport, or you'll never be able to avoid the crazy old guy in the park who thinks it's his mission to make you feel welcome in his country. However, there is a guy I know, living in a small community, who has made it his home. Everybody there accepts him as one of them. In the countryside it's more about personal relationships and less about the color of your skin (longterm... but short term in the countryside it's all about skin color cause they see it so rarely, amiright?). Japanese if anything are experts at fitting things into boxes and it seems if you go through the trouble to make a little Japanese box for you, they will obligingly plop you in it and label you "that weird foreigner who we are used to that lives here and pretty much acts like us, but we still expect him to eventually leave (until they stop expecting that part, which takes a while I hear, cause they aren't used to white immigrants as most permanent ones are Chinese, Korean, or Brazillian)"

Everybody should start ignoring some of the posters in here now and keep focusing on the dialogue, cause I am learning a lot about passion from one side and more about Japan from the other and I don't want it to devolve into a "shut up japanophile" vs. "shut up bigot" shout out!

jorgebucaran Wrote:For the second part, you are obviously wrong. Other people have became Japanese already, it's called Foreign-born Japanese.

Wouldn't they just be called 'Japanese' then?

Regulations governing work visas may change in the near future: http://www.japantoday.com/category/natio...ration-law

"At the rally, participants called for withdrawal of the proposed law revision in a joint statement, saying the amendment would enable authorities to impose criminal penalties or cancel visa status for foreigners who fail to provide notification of any change in their addresses or institutions to which they belong, such as companies and schools."

It's funny that as we discuss this, the Japanese diet is trying to push retroactive changes to a law through that will make it even more difficult for foreigners to enter and stay in Japan.

cracky Wrote:

jorgebucaran Wrote:For the second part, you are obviously wrong. Other people have became Japanese already, it's called Foreign-born Japanese.

Wouldn't they just be called 'Japanese' then?

I don't know, I got that from Wikipedia.

That has nothing to do with anything except citizenship. You can gain citizenship and still not know the first thing about Japan or its culture. The only requirement is to have been living in Japan a long time and to have secure finances. Many long-termers seem to live in a little western bubble they've created for themselves and never even try to learn the language, let alone anything else.

The person to whom you responded meant that you can never become a Japanese person (not citizen). You'll always look like a foreigner and be treated as such by strangers, even if you manage to perfectly emulate all Japanese mannerisms. Foreigners of Asian descent have it better in this regard, but they face much more discrimination if they don't have Japanese language & mannerisms mastered.

Oh, I meant in terms of citizenship. I will obviously never "be Japanese" because I will never look like one, and I don't want to look like one. Becoming Japanese means knowing their culture *very* well, speak their language at a native level, etc.

Tell me about discrimination in Japan. What should I expect?

"Foreign Born Japanese" sounds like it would refer to persons of Japanese heritage who were born outside of Japan and not to foreigners who became naturalized citizens of Japan.

You might be by some people.

I was never outright discriminated against, but it's not uncommon for people to underestimate foreigners, since we have an image of being totally ignorant of Japan (not entirely undeserved I might add). It always quickly disappears when I blow them away with my knowledge of Japanese language/history/culture though.

sheetz Wrote:"Foreign Born Japanese" sounds like it would refer to persons of Japanese heritage who were born outside of Japan and nothing to do with foreigners who became naturalized citizens of Japan.

The wiki page in question is about foreigners who have taken Japanese citizenship, not nisei.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_Japanese

Jarvik7 Wrote:You might be by some people.

I was never outright discriminated against, but it's not uncommon for people to underestimate foreigners, since we have an image of being totally ignorant of Japan (not entirely undeserved I might add). It always quickly disappears when I blow them away with my knowledge of Japanese language/history/culture though.

I am not talking about that discrimination. Like other people have pointed out, Japanese are amazed when you speak their language or use chopsticks. That is silly. I mean actual discrimination, bad stuff, harm.

jorgebucaran Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:You might be by some people.

I was never outright discriminated against, but it's not uncommon for people to underestimate foreigners, since we have an image of being totally ignorant of Japan (not entirely undeserved I might add). It always quickly disappears when I blow them away with my knowledge of Japanese language/history/culture though.

I am not talking about that discrimination. Like other people have pointed out, Japanese are amazed when you speak their language or use chopsticks. That is silly. I mean actual discrimination, bad stuff, harm.

Hotels will ask to copy your passport and/or foreign registration card every time you stay overnight. When you get into trouble with the law they will ask you where you work and report any violations (traffic tickets, etc.) to your workplace (adding insult to injury and setting you up for further penalties). You won't be able to get good deals on cell phones because they'll ask to see your passport and then check the visas and look for loopholes to deny you the ability to take out long-term contracts or purchase cell phones at reduced rates. A number of "hotels" don't accept foreign guests and there are businesses, usually few and far between that will bar your entry based on the fact that you aren't Japanese.

jorgebucaran Wrote:I mean actual discrimination, bad stuff, harm.

Not sure if this is technically "discrimination" since it's legal, but by the dictionary it could be called discrimination. Here are the things I worry about on a regular basis concerning discrimination:
Traffic accidents. As it was pointed out Japan is no-fault, which means if you get in an accident through no fault of your own it's still a huge huge deal. Every accident, ticket, speeding ticket, biking hazardously (seriously*) gets reported to your work and has repercussions. The law easily allows for people who end up on the wrong side of traffic issues to have their visa's revoked or in a less confrontation like approach, never renewed. Of course this doesn't happen that often, especially for white's, and especially if you are contrite and play by the rules. But it is possible, does happen, and can't happen to a regular Japanese. (although they get all the workplace repercussions just like we do).

There have been several instances (2) of JETs who were arrested because a shoplift occurred at a grocery store they frequent. An unfortunate side affect of the Japanese justice system is that if you are arrested, you are guilty as charged by society. Though the two JETs were innocent (and found innocent) they were imprisoned for over 20 days before trial and then had to leave the country (as they were terminated from JET for missing work for 20 days and being arrested). Japanese peoples lives are just as easily ruined, however the interweb is rife with reports of polices preference to pick up foreigners for many reasons.

Now that I've said that keep in mind, this will never happen to you. Pretty much you'd have to win the lottery backwards to be screwed like this. But the laws are set up this way, and it does happen to other people (always other). As such these are the kinds of subconscious fears and worries that will keep you disobeying the law as much as a Japanese driver would, or from straying anywhere near a random crime scene with the rest of the curious onlookers.

In a more applicable case of legal discrimination, rent. In my city rent for Japanese is around $350 a month for the average HUGE apparentment. However it is around $1,000 a month if you are foreign. This kind of discrimination usually only lasts till you can act Japanese. I don't think I'd have any problem getting cheap rent nowadays. (If I could possibly beat $120 a month... lol)

*fun bike story
Here's what happened this morning. We had a serious moment in the morning meeting when the vice principal announced that a woman had contacted the school yesterday. She had been driving in nearby in the evening when a girl in our uniform on a bike was also biking home. The girl was biking "haphazardly" and so she got honked at. Upon receiving the honk the girl glared at her. The principal and vice-principal scheduled an appointment for her to come to school tomorrow so they can officially apologize to her. (which of course means we have to clean the entrance way extra nice again tonight /sigh) All homeroom teachers are required to announce and reprimand the students and ask for the person to turn herself in (or her friends to do it for her, which of course they won't, unless she has a traitor in her nakama midst. Ooooh the drama!).

jorgebucaran Wrote:or use chopsticks

I always tell them that, at home, we use three.

welldone101 Wrote:if you are arrested, you are guilty as charged by society

This is, perhaps, the most dangerous thing about living in Japan. By and large, Japanese people believe that the police are just like the Pope: infallible. So if you are arrested, you are in deep do-do.

This is not a matter of discrimination, however, unless you want to claim that foreigners, or people who *look* like foreigners, are arrested more casually than Japanese are arrested. But anyone who is arrested in Japan faces a bleak future.

A modified jury system came into effect this month. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Most of the folks I've talked to don't want anything to do with it, including serving. They trust the judges, who trust the police. Like I say, it will be interesting to see how this goes.

It would be very, very, very difficult to argue that there are no innocent people residing in Japanese penal institutions, which, by the way, are not "correctional" institutions.

Wally Wrote:

welldone101 Wrote:if you are arrested, you are guilty as charged by society

This is, perhaps, the most dangerous thing about living in Japan. By and large, Japanese people believe that the police are just like the Pope: infallible. So if you are arrested, you are in deep do-do.

This is not a matter of discrimination, however, unless you want to claim that foreigners, or people who *look* like foreigners, are arrested more casually than Japanese are arrested. But anyone who is arrested in Japan faces a bleak future.

A modified jury system came into effect this month. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Most of the folks I've talked to don't want anything to do with it, including serving. They trust the judges, who trust the police. Like I say, it will be interesting to see how this goes.

It would be very, very, very difficult to argue that there are no innocent people residing in Japanese penal institutions, which, by the way, are not "correctional" institutions.

That's interesting. So in Japan you are *not* actually presumed innocent until proven guilty? Its the other way around? Or am I misinterpreting welldone's and your posts?

blackmacros Wrote:That's interesting. So in Japan you are *not* actually presumed innocent until proven guilty? Its the other way around? Or am I misinterpreting welldone's and your posts?

Well actually we were talking about socially. If you are arrested you are ruined. I've read stories in the paper of people (Japanese) uprooting their whole family and secretly disappearing, going elsewhere and starting from the bottom again to recover from being arrested and then proved innocent. Obviously I've never been arrested and proven innocent, and I haven't talked to anybody who has been arrested, so I can't back this claim up unless you count dramas and a few paragraphs from non-Japanese academics as source material.

However, from a legal perspective it is the opposite of the US. In the US the burden of proof rests on the prosecution. In Japan the burden of proof rests on the defense. I believe that basically this is guilty until proven innocent, but I'm not sure since I'm not a lawyer.
This is really handy for the police, who seem to rely on two pieces of evidence in all the crime dramas I've watched. a) you live close to the crime and b) you signed a coerced confession after 28 days of confinement.:lol:

welldone101 Wrote:

blackmacros Wrote:That's interesting. So in Japan you are *not* actually presumed innocent until proven guilty? Its the other way around? Or am I misinterpreting welldone's and your posts?

Well actually we were talking about socially. If you are arrested you are ruined. I've read stories in the paper of people (Japanese) uprooting their whole family and secretly disappearing, going elsewhere and starting from the bottom again to recover from being arrested and then proved innocent.

However, from a legal perspective it is the opposite of the US. In the US the burden of proof rests on the prosecution. In Japan the burden of proof rests on the defense. I believe that basically this is guilty until proven innocent, but I'm not sure since I'm not a lawyer. This is really handy for the police, who seem to rely on two pieces of evidence in all the crime dramas I've watched. a) you live close to the crime and b) you signed a coerced confession after 40 days of confinement.

Huh, that's quite odd. I always just assumed that all/most civilised countries had adopted a criminal system revolving around the concept of innocent until proven guilty. Shows how naieve I am I guess!

blackmacros Wrote:Huh, that's quite odd. I always just assumed that all/most civilised* countries had adopted a criminal system revolving around the concept of innocent until proven guilty. Shows how naieve I am I guess!

Suspects are required to wear coarse fabric smocks and go barefoot in sandals to the court hearings so as to not influence the judges with fancy clothes. They also have to be tied up with rope. This is changing I believe thanks to the lay judge system being implemented, but only in those cases.

When I learned that a few months ago I was like "ah wha?, say wha again?" This nun who often goes to court with Filipinos filled me in. The rules here are like freaking archaic or maybe just really Asian. Either way my US trained sense of justice does not understand them.

*I had the same experience. I thought that nobody in civilized countries ate raw horse or live octopus. Also till I was 12 I didn't think other countries had concrete. Naive じゃない？

welldone101 Wrote:

blackmacros Wrote:Huh, that's quite odd. I always just assumed that all/most civilised countries had adopted a criminal system revolving around the concept of innocent until proven guilty. Shows how naieve I am I guess!

Suspects are required to wear coarse fabric smocks and go barefoot in sandals to the court hearings so as to not influence the judges with fancy clothes. They also have to be tied up with rope. This is changing I believe thanks to the lay judge system being implemented, but only in those cases.

When I learned that a few months ago I was like "ah wha?, say wha again?" This nun who often goes to court with Filipinos filled me in. The rules here are like freaking archaic or maybe just really Asian. Either way my US trained sense of justice does not understand them.

Wow. I actually thought you were making fun of me until about halfway through your first paragraph. You're serious though right? Wow.