harhol Wrote:Isn't unnecessary use of 外来語 frowned upon?
I hope so because I'd feel embarrassed using words like ピンク...

Unnecessary, yes. "Unfortunately", pretty much all of the 外来語 you see when reading Japanese etc isn't unnecessary, it's the proper and most common way to say things.

テーブル
コンピューター
オレンジ
オブジェクト
インタネット
ノート

etc etc etc.

Nuriko Wrote:オレンジ色 disappointed me too!　There's always　橙色 but I've only seen it in literature.

Haha, the only reason I know the word 橙色 is that I made my students play a game where they had to comes up with English words to fit a pattern I gave them, and then they had to translate the words for extra points. They were worried I wouldn't give them points for katakana, so they wrote 橙色.

I don't understand not liking katakana words or trying to avoid using them. Often it will sound unnatural for you to use the Japanese equivalent. Why purposely try to make your Japanese sound unnatural?

Tzadeck Wrote:I don't understand not liking katakana words or trying to avoid using them. Often it will sound unnatural for you to use the Japanese equivalent. Why purposely try to make your Japanese sound unnatural?

Obviously I wouldn't use a traditional word if I knew it was obsolete or unpopular. But there's just something weird about saying pinku... it almost has connotations of those old racist comedians who'd make jokes in a "Chinaman" accent:

A. Hello Mr Chan, what time's your dental appointment?
B. Tooth hurty! Tooth hurty!
A. Two thirty?
B. No no no...
A. But you said two thirty...

etc.

Clearly that's not the case in reality, but speaking English words in a Japanese accent when a Japanese word also exists still feels weird to me. I realise that they're words in their own right... I guess I just haven't fully adjusted yet.

What would be useful (perhaps) is a big list of katakana proper nouns. Mainly for memorizing E->J transliterations. Seriously, 90% of my E-J dictionary use is to check this. I can tell you the best way to render a particular Engllish word in katakana (IMHO), but I'm not very good at guessing which random interpretation pulled out of someon'es butt somehow became the standard for a particular word. Not to mention the non-English ones.

> speaking English words in a Japanese accent when a Japanese word also exists still feels weird to me

Not for me, and here's why. You just need to have fun with it. You need to imitate, even if it feels like you're making fun. That's how you'll get your accent to sound right. I took Japanese class in college along with a roommate of mine, so we were constantly going around saying things in katakana. (I mean English words in Japanese.) First of all, everyone in class had their Japanese names, so we constantly were saying English (or hispanic, etc.) names in Japanese. リバースさん、ホフマンさん、ベナヴィデズさん。 Then there were towns nearby, エルパソに行きます。 (el paso ni ikimasu) ラスクルーセス (las cruces). And names for buildings on campus, ブリーランドホール。　It was no longer Breland hall to us, it was "buri-rando ho-ru" no matter what.　　Just practice them until they sound normal to you.

I'm guessing the English versions of Japanese are going to have different connotations, or else why would they use them? Kind of like how burrito and wrap aren't exactly the same thing in English.

to start with saying english words in katakana pronounciation did feel weird, it does in some cases sound like baby english. but the more you do it the more you get a feel for it.
the delivery guy at work constantly bitches at work about my writing, so i wrote out his tickets one day in katakana with kanji numbers just to irriate him. and he put in a complaint to my manager who couldnt keep a straight face when he was telling me off.
fantastic fun.

You guys who are anti katakana words aren't going to last long. Loanwords are a permanent facet of Japanese culture. 桃色 is just as much a Chinese word as オレンジ is an English word. In that neither of them is a Chinese word or English word. The sooner you stop thinking about them as "English words pronounced all funny like" and think of them as "Japanese words of more recent origin" the better off you'll be. In fact, rejoice that you have a leg up learning them.

You also have to realize that saying "but there is a Japanese word for it" is a false representation. Sure you can use shiken when you want to say testo. But testo has a much more specific meaning than shiken and you can't use it for every situation you would use shiken in. It's a different word with a different meaning. Just like in English, you could kick out all the French (and lose 30% of our vocab) but then you'd have to use danger when you meant risk and freedom when you meant liberty. Are they similar? Sure. Could you clear it up with more words? Sure. But why say something like "By wearing a bullet proof vest you can reduce the danger, not the kind of danger that exists from the gun but the kind of danger that doesn't exist but you can affect and represent with probability." Or you could say "By wearing a bullet proof vest you can reduce the risk."

Japanese doesn't have a word that specifically means what "puraibashi" (privacy) does now in Japanese. And it certainly doesn't even come close to mean what it used to in English. So when you want to express a concept like that, and you chose to confuse the listener instead with a long drawn out explanation of the connotation of the Japanese word (I mean, Chinese loanword) you use instead that's the opposite of "communication".

If you want to read an author is tries her hardest to avoid loanwords read "banana yoshimoto". From what I hear her writing style avoids as much as possible chukugo.

welldone101 Wrote:You guys who are anti katakana words aren't going to last long.

Thanks for letting me know I won't last long. I guess I'll have to give up now...　*quits job

It's not black and white. There is a gradient to what kind of katakana is excessive. While オレンジ is perfectly natural to use, most of the words in the first post (or slangish crap like ナウい - thankfully dead) are not. Furthermore, even though オレンジ is the natural word to use, one can still regret that there isn't a more frequently used 和語 or 漢語. One can mourn the obsolescence of native vocabulary while still speaking like a modern person. Just because you do not appreciate the aesthetic of 和語&漢語 doesn't mean it's not a valid aesthetic.

Appreciating that aesthetic doesn't mean that you forgo all use of katakana words in your daily life. I model my speech after normal (non-外国憧れ) Japanese males my age. That means that some frequent katakana words (テスト、オレンジ、ピンク) etc get used, but it also means that I don't use every katakana English word I possibly can, because it's not natural speech. Many of the words in the first post sample aren't even part of Japanese, they are listed in dictionaries under かたかな発音. Aka pronunciation keys to pronounce a foreign word. Some 英語憧れ Japanese people just randomly throw English words into their speech. Those are not loan words, they are speaking Japlish. It's the same thing as western anime otaku throwing random Japanese words into sentences, but a lot more common (probably since everyone has to study English in school).

On a side note, 漢語 are not really loanwords. The majority were borrowed over a thousand years ago and have become integrated into the language. 外来語 on the otherhand very much retain their foreign flavor, unlike English where the majority of foreign words are integrated seamlessly. Linguistic papers on Japanese generally sort words into three categories: 和語、漢語、外来語 (Japanese, Sino-Japanese, Foreign). It doesn't make sense to lump 漢語 in with 外来語 due to the historical development of the language. It also doesn't make sense to make comparisons with English's use of loanwords for the same reason.

ps: chukugo isn't a word. Did you mean 漢語?

To some other posters: Obviously transcribing names into katakana pronunciation is a different matter and completely unrelated to the thread.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

welldone101 Wrote:You guys who are anti katakana words aren't going to last long.

Thanks for letting me know I won't last long. I guess I'll have to give up now...　*quits job
[...]
I model my speech after normal (non-外国憧れ) Japanese males my age. That means that some frequent katakana words (テスト、オレンジ、ピンク) etc get used, but it also means that I don't use every katakana English word I possibly can, because it's not natural speech.

If you use English loanwords where a native would use English loanwords then you weren't really who I was referring to.

I have no problem with people who mourn it as an aesthetic pursuit. However, there are loads of people (none of whom are in this thread I guess, oops digression) I have come across that loathe it with an almost violent passion and can't fathom how a Japanese person "could possibly use such bastardized language when they have their own words". For a lot of English speakers, 'fortissimo' sounds cooler than 'very loud' and calling something 'vodka' instead of 'distilled beverage' seems completely natural even though it's a word roughly transcribed into our western alphabet. That these same English speakers couldn't understand an identical situation from a Japanese point of view is lame.

p.s. - Sorry I meant 熟語 not chukugo.

Yeah I never said I was anti-katakana (that would be idiotic), just that it's weird and takes some getting used to.

I just chatted with some of my co-workers about this topic. They affirmed that they feel there are 外来語 that are necessary and enriching to Japanese. The biggest one was ｲﾃﾞﾝﾃｨﾃｨ (identity). There is a translation in the dictionary but the word does not encapsulate the meaning of the English import. (Keep in mind this is coming from a female divorcee, which means it's a much more important topic for her.) (She also just brought up another one, volunteer, which is a word they desperately needed)

I asked about the comparison to jukugo and she said it's a matter of assimilation. Chinese words ARE Japanese now, there is no seperation. But loanwords could still be taken out and expressed in different ways possibly. But she said it's like the word "sushi". (Paraphrased from nihongo) "Sure you could say something like 'raw fish prepared on vinegar rice' or you could just keep using the word sushi, which you have imported into English because it perfectly represents that idea. It's the same with volunteerism and indentity." "What about pink?" "Well, pink is pink. It's Japanese now it means pink."

So I gather that a) pink is different from identity, in that they didn't import a concept that required it to be named. b) The "pink" case is the case where Jarvik is nostalgic about the lost aesthetic by using a loanword. c) It's a matter of assimilation and maybe in a few hundred years these words will be just as inseparable as jukugo.

She also mentioned "semi conductor" which she doesn't think makes any sense translated into Japanese and prefers the word semiconductor even though she doesn't speak English. She said it sounds cooler and more appropriate. Just a little insight into the Japanese mind.

As for studying them, I think encountering them in the language is the best and fastest way to learn katakana English. It's important to nail the pronounciation right away. I went around saying taberu instead of teburu for table for a full 6 months and it really led to some confusion. Just use the ones you find are used commonly and don't go crazy trying to memorize "duplicate" ones (i.e. my coworker said people who use stuff like "nation" and "reorganization" and "commence" are just trying to sound smart, I guess like people who use latin when speaking English)

harhol Wrote:How often are ピンク and オレンジ likely to show up in written sources like novels, manga, newspapers & video games? Is it simply a case of semantic preference or are words like 桃色 genuinely becoming obsolete? Or is it just a speech thing? Because the way I speak in English is hugely different from the way I write, and I think that applies to most people.

All the time actually. A good game example would be Trusty Bell (Eternal Sonata). She yells Orange Cure constantly in Katana English. Also in manga, a lot of times you'll see Kanji written with katakana furigana for the english loan word.