What do you think of learning kanji randomly, only those which are needed? Of course not only their key word but also all primitives, and all previous key words included in the kanji. Heisig's said it's not good (you should go in book's order), but what do you think? Are there chances for learning characters you just need and succes?

I've thought of learning 4&3 kyuu vocabulary in such a manner.

I've done this and it's not efficient. You waste a lot of time when you hit a kanji you don't know and you have to go look it up. Based on my own experience, I expect that you could get twice as much overall studying done if you focus on RTK only (in Heisig order) then move to sentences and vocabulary. After about six months of learning kanji in the order I encounter them, I've moved back to RTK in a final sprint to the finish line.

The letters A and E show up more often than Q, X and Z...

All of them are needed. That's the point of the book: to teach you the meaning & writing of the kanji you need to know in the most helpful way possible.

Unless you absolutely must pass level three or four of the JLPT this year (i.e. for a job), I'd recommend skipping them and focusing on learning actual Japanese rather than test Japanese. For that, you need to know all jōyō kanji.

The problem is I'd like to pass JLPT 3 in December (let's say I'm starting now) and there's not enough time for me to get through RTK. If you have the e-book it's not so slow to find previous key words... Learning new primitives all the time doesn't change anything. What difference you learn it now or then?

Piotoro Wrote:The problem is I'd like to pass JLPT 3 in December (let's say I'm starting now) and there's not enough time for me to get through RTK. If you have the e-book it's not so slow to find previous key words... Learning new primitives all the time doesn't change anything. What difference you learn it now or then?

The book is ordered in this way because it's the easiest way to learn, you learn all parts of a kanji before it shows up. It isn't based on frequency but on complexity.

Piotoro Wrote:The problem is I'd like to pass JLPT 3 in December (let's say I'm starting now) and there's not enough time for me to get through RTK. If you have the e-book it's not so slow to find previous key words... Learning new primitives all the time doesn't change anything. What difference you learn it now or then?

Because the order makes a difference in efficiency. When I was learning out of order I had already memorized the entire list of primitives. But that didn't make a difference; it was still slower. A Heisig-like order (and there are other, alternative orders) presents kanji that are often confused by meaning or form (or reading in non-Heisig systems) together. This makes a significant difference.

You can do it but you will be negating Heisig method.
However you will HAVE to do it once you've finished with RTK, it will become normal.

I think Piotr is contemplating doing the kanji in heisig order (not random order), but doing it in subsets based on JLPT levels. If he's using materials to prepare for the exams, he's not likely to encounter many unknown kanji.

Piotr, you might want to search the forums a bit. I recall someone using RTK to prepare for JLPT. Those discussions might have been in connection with a script called KanjiLite (which limits RTK to 1000 based on either frequency or JPLT, I don't recall).

Edit: Here is someone who used RevTK Lite for JLPT 2 using the greasemonkey script Alter Sequence.

If you speed through RTK really quick (I did about 50 a day and finished in about a month) then you could easily pass JLPT 3 with the time till december (Well, I think, I've never taken one but they don't sound that hard...)

There is a little problem. Couse of lack of proficiency in English I have some serious problems with understanding many of the key words. This disqualify such a rate. 5 a day, this is my pace... Why is that? I've written about it once (2nd post of mine in this topic - Reply #13). I translate key words into Polish. I can't help it. It's just like this and it's going to be as it is. So I don't have time to study all RTK.

By the way. I don't see anything bad in learning any kanji in such a manner:
61 頑 =　元 (二＋儿) ＋頁 (一＋丶＋貝 <目＋ハ>).
I think you need the same time whatever going in order or not. It just seems longer. After all you'll use it again sooner or later.

L3 is only 300 kanji. It would actually be a waste of time to try to use Heisig IMO. Just put them into Mnemosyne or Anki. Then when you feel you know all the material well enough to pass the exam, go back to doing RtK1 in the intended order. I think this is the best way of both passing the exam and eventually working your way through Heisig.

Matthew Wrote:L3 is only 300 kanji. It would actually be a waste of time to try to use Heisig IMO.

Well, I forgot to say I'd like to know kanji for every word. My coursebook covers about 3000 words. I'm not sure, but I know that the book for 4th kyuu covers 1500 words (I have it already), so I guess the 2nd is the same. I know it's pretty much, so probably I'd start with the most important words.

Matthew makes a good point. Maybe do L4+3 kanji out of order, then add those sentences for those kanji from KO2001. That should get you far enough to pass JLPT 3-kyu.

EDIT: typo

To study only the 4kyu kanji using the Heisig method, you need…

A) the list of 103 4kyu kanji
(frame number.name, )
1.one, 2.two, 3.three, 4.four, 5.five, 6.six, 7.seven, 8.eight, 9.nine, 10.ten,
11.mouth, 12.day, 13.month, 15.eye, 16.old, 37.white, 38.hundred, 39.in,
40.thousand, 49.above, 50below, 57.see, 64.ten thousand, 77.left, 78.right,
95.child, 98.women, 101.mama, 105.little, 106.few, 107.large, 108.many,
111.outside, 112.name, 127.stream, 130.water, 150.soil, 159.time, 161.fire,
171.fish, 190.relax, 195.tree, 211.book, 248.before, 269.gold, 277.roadway,
286.car, 290.in front, 307.tall, 318.week, 324.study, 327.write, 335.say,
344.tale, 347.word, 348.read, 422.rain, 428.heavens, 431.stand up,
445.north, 458.every, 504.east, 535.electricity, 568.noon, 581.country,
588.store, 637.hand, 704.friend, 752.meeting, 767.exit, 768.mountain,
779.enter, 781.part, 818.ear, 831.buy, 859.male, 873.going, 951.person,
965.rest, 1009.flower, 1012.what, 1036.year, 1092.company, 1202.half,
1274.father, 1278.exam, 1279.leg, 1317.empty, 1379.behind, 1472.eat,
1474.drink, 1502.new, 1555.life, 1587.now, 1602.west, 1613.south,
1620.interval, 1626.hear, 1811.circle, 1884.come, 1885.spirit, 1920.long,
1984.station,

B) the list of primitives that make these kanji (in book sequence)
(frame number.name, ) for kanji (primitive name)
(.name,4th edition page number ) for primitives
14.rice field, .walkingstick,p28 .drop,p28 41.tongue, .divining rod,p33
48.fortune telling, .human legs,p36 .bound up,p37 .horns,p37 54.shellfish,
70.neck, .by one`s side,p48 76.craft, 83.sword(dagger), 93.can, 109.evening,
158.Buddhist temple, .hood(glass canopy),p87 .house,p89 216.not yet,
249.cow, .umbrella,p116 .meeting,p117 255.king, 256.jewel, .road,p130
289.transport(butcher), .walking legs,p134 .crown,p137 .top hat,p139
.lidded crock,p142 317.circumference, 319.gentleman, 323.sell,
.school house,p144 .brush,p145 .task master,p146 .mending,p162
.belt,p172 444.spoon, .reclining,p183 466.lack(yawn), 534.tortoise(eel),
.pent in,p218 .cave,p220 696.or again(crotch), .elbow,p244 .wall,p246
.sunglasses,p258 858.power, 1008.change, 1070.shaku, 1086.altar, 1125.ax,
1275.mingle, 1316.hole, .cocoon,p351 .silver,p365 1468.good(halo),
.sheaf,p370 1496.spicy(red pepper), 1505.happiness, .grow up,p378
1616.gates, .hairpin,p448 1978.horse,

Following the Heisig method strictly, you need to learn 66 primitives, to learn the 103 4kyu kanji. Admittedly, some of these primitives can be deleted. For example, do you really need “1008 change” if you already know “444 spoon” and “951 person”? This seems like a lot of extra work, to learn only 103 kanji. However it could be useful to learn the standard list later.

If I was studying for JLPT 4kyu, I would NOT use this method, because
1) it is a lot of extra work
2) the JLPT does not require you to write the kanji
3) the JLPT does not test kanji meaning in English
I would make or buy kanji flash cards, which I could do faster than an SRS and would concentrate on kanji readings (on and kun readings) and learning kanji compounds (and their readings). An SRS would be very useful for grammar and vocabulary. For 3kyu, I would use it for kanji too.

If I didn`t care about the JLPT 4kyu, I would not learn the 4kyu kanji in isolation, because there are few reading materials using only 4kyu kanji. I also don`t know of any reading materials in Heisig order either.

I did this more as a thought activity, to investigate the possibility of learning random kanji and test the limits of the Heisig learning method. It seems learning random kanji is possible early in the book, especially for the first 300 or so Heisig kanji, when tracking down the primitives is relatively easy. Later in the book, some (but not all) kanji accumulate lengthy chains of primitives, which make individual kanji learning tiresome. In summary, the Heisig method nearly collapses at 4kyu level.

Obviously, the goal is to learn all kanji in the standard list, but many people drop out of the Heisig method early, and reading is more fun and useful in acquiring vocabulary and grammar in context. I have read good responses with RTKLite (about 1000kanji).
However, if I wanted to read as early as possible, what is the least number of kanji that is viable to start with? It should have simple texts that are readily available, and should be enough to make the Heisig method practical. My speculation is that 300kanji (about JLPT3 or Japanese elementary school Year 3) would be enough to start, because there a number of books for elementary students, and these books often have furigana to explain the reading of each kanji, so don`t need to wait for RTK2.
What do you think?