I just saw the movie method promoted in another thread, and that got me thinking again about it's utility. How many people here have done the movie method, or kanji town, or a related technique for learning the readings? What was your experience? Did you do it after RTK or in place of it? For people that have learned the readings through other methods (RTK2, kanji chains, KO2001, ...) how long did that take you? Would you recommend it?

I am hoping that we could pool our collective knowledge here and perhaps narrow in on the most effective methods. And maybe solve some outstanding questions like is it better to do movie method in place of RTK, or to do RTK and then go back and fill in the readings with the movie method.

Probably the best in to do movie method instead of RTK. It should take the same time RTK takes.
If you already finished RTK, it is a good aid during sentence mining.

I completed RTK1 several months ago and have actually been thinking about going through the movie method on the side, so to speak. If I had to start from scratch again I would definitely try the movie method first. It is basically the Heisig method (or at least the key feature of the Heisig method) combined with a version of the journey method both of which are proven as highly effective memory techniques.

There are pluses and minuses to both. I know from experience that learning the primitives separately takes time, and that grouping by pronunciation is not as efficient as an ordering that takes into account similar meanings and difficult to distinguish kanji. So the question is does the benefit of hitting two birds with one stone (writing and readings) outweigh the disadvantages I've listed? I'm hoping there are enough people that have gone both routes that we can get a definitive answer on this.

I did it the Movie method, because I made it. It took the same amount of time as normal RTK, and I did it in place of RTK. I had generally better retention than average, and now I know the onyomi for all the kanji I learned. Anything else?

drmoviemethod.blogspot.com

It took me about an hour a day for a week to memorize the primitives, easy as cake.

I'm confused here - are you talking about doing TMM in place of RTK1 or 2? I can see doing it instead of 1, I suppose, but frankly I'm only interested in it so I might learn common onyomi faster.

Instead of RTK1

I rarely watch movies so i have a feeling the movie method would not suit me. Plus I've already finished RtK1 and kind of keen to start real sentences.

But I've heard that by the time you work through KO2001 you should have a strong foundation in being able to read the onyomi for most kanji through sheer exposure. Is this really true? If so, and I plan to do KO2001, are the kanji town/chain/movie method necessary for someone in my situation?

2001KO is effective at teaching just through exposure. It's simple, just put the example sentences in Anki and review. But just in case you didn't know, 2001KO only trains you in 1110 kanji, so not most kanji, however I think that's a good ballpark to be in where you can move off systematic kanji study.

I haven't really tried the movie method, but I'm starting to think I may incorporate it in my study. I tried kanji chains for a few onyomi groups and they worked well for me, and some time ago I also read through teh story for KOKU that alycs shared on his blog, and I still remember all the kanji read KOKU just from one reading. So a little anecdotal evidence suggests that it's effective, but I can't speak for massive amounts of readings.

I'm currently going through this book http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3003 which is conveniently ordered by onyomi groups, so I am considering using TMM on some of the larger groups as I get to them.

Thanks for the info vosimura. Since its purportedly the 1100 most frequent kanji I would guess that knowing the readings for them is going to be very useful. But at the same time I have a feeling that, kind of like going through RtK, knowing only *some* or *most* readings is going to be insufficient. Its sort of like being "mostly" literate, or in other words illiterate Hrm...

Yeah, still fairly illiterate, but you have go through 1000 on the way from 0 to 2000+.

Knowing all the readings you would still be illiterate. It's vocab really that I focus on as opposed to # of kanji. For example I think I'd get more out of 1000 kanji + 4000 vocab than 2000 kanji + 2000 vocab. And then ofcourse it's reading practice & comprehension level.

vosmiura Wrote:Yeah, still fairly illiterate, but you have go through 1000 on the way from 0 to 2000+.

Knowing all the readings you would still be illiterate. It's vocab really that I focus on as opposed to # of kanji. For example I think I'd get more out of 1000 kanji + 4000 vocab than 2000 kanji + 2000 vocab. And then ofcourse it's reading practice & comprehension level.

That's why I thought I might be better off with KO2001. That way I'm learning both vocab and readings at the same time. But I wonder if there is some way to incorporate one of these methods (movie method/chaining/kanjitown) into KO2001? Alyks mentioned reorganising RtK from Heisig order into sound-based order. I wonder if something like that could be done for the KO sentences? Learning the sentences in groups of similarly sounding kanji as opposed to frequency? I don't know, maybe none of that makes any sense...its 11:30pm here, I just got back from 1.5 hours of judo and I'm too tired to be thinking this much >_>

You could re-order it, but much of the benefit of 2001KO is the way it groups kanji into logical groups. It's a good order to learn with. Some guys here ordered the smart.fm lists into 2001KO order and it kicks butt.

Then again this book I'm doing now is all in sound-based order and works well too http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/reader/488319...eader-page. But then again I didn't (and couldn't) start with this book right after RTK1.

Aye, remember the KO list is teaching vocabulary, which you'll get Onyomi and Kunyomi knowledge as a by-product. I think it's a great method, especially as this applies to very common words and kanji.

Now, as systematically learning 2 to 3 vocabulary word for EVERY kanji sounds a bit of overkill, it's worth doing kanji chain, kanji town, movie method, etc to get Onyomi into your head systematically. Then when the kanji pop up in new words in the wild (ie random Japanese text), you know the meaning sort of via RTK and the pronunciation most likely via movie method.

Plus, don't let the name fool you. Movie method is memory palace (ie kanji town). It's grouping kanji in one location. You don't need a movie. However, a movie provides for a vivid location with memorable scenes for you to place kanji, hence the title. I've also used it with TV shows, comic books and music videos. For the small groups with 2 to 5 kanji per onyomi, I even based it around a physical item or location (like a bathtub, my kitchen, my car, the local bank, etc.) ie memory palace.

My main difference from Alyks will be I don't have to worry about the primitives all the time, since I have the kanji memorized already. Same goes with anyone else that's finished RTK with 90% mature or fifth stack. I can use the primitives if it helps, but it's not necessary as I'm going for onyomi only and not the writing and recognition also.

Nukemarine, it sounds like you finished RtK and then went back and did the movie method. I was under the impression that, if I did the movie method, I would have to go back and modify my story for eaach of the 2042 RtK kanji so that they take place in a memorable location associated with a sound. This sounds like a lot of work and I'm afraid it would mess with my memory of the kanji I know already. Is this what you've been doing? Has it been working well for you? Is it a lot of work to go back and do this?

You don't have to go back. Go forward. Put your story in a place.

If it was a dancing bear, make him a dancing bear at the zoo.
You don't need to change your mnemonic, you can just stick something to it.

Here's a quick question - why is the Onyomi the focus and not Kunyomi? Just curious.

I just recently finished RTK1 (huzzah!), and am dedicating this week to learning the kana. I had glanced at the movie method when I'd first started RTK1, and thought I'd tackle it after I learned the kanji. RTK2 mentions in the intro that it is to be used as a guide only, and not a systematic form of study. So movie method would definitely be better for learning the reading.

So here I am. If it's a fast way to learn the pronunciations, then I'll do it!
(btw - just received KO2001, Katakana Words and Essential Japanese Verbs in the mail today. Was going to do them after Tae Kim. Wish I had more time in the day.)

btw - Are there seriuosly only around 300 readings for all 2000+ kanji?

Oh, and since I know the kanji already, what would I put in the question part of anki? The reading? I haven't used anki yet, see.

Thunk Wrote:Oh, and since I know the kanji already, what would I put in the question part of anki? The reading?

Not sure what you mean by this. As of now you know a basic English interpretation of each Kanji and how to write them. Even after you study the readings, the point of an SRS is still to test what you think you know, so of course you could have the kanji in the question field. For example, if you were learning readings separately, a sample card might look something like this:

Q: 寸
A: すん [definition & other useful information, example compounds, mnemonic]


You see 寸, write down すん and the card is scheduled again in a few days, then a few weeks, then a few months, etc. Or you you fail and the review time is shorter. Of course you could also have the question as [すん] and the answer as all the kanji with that reading. It's up to you. As long as the question implies the answer and vice-versa, anything goes. What's important is that you're testing something which isn't yet in your long-term memory.

I just put the on readings on the answer part in a separate field that I added just for on-yomi it was the least labor intensive path.

However if I was going to do the full movie method (keep in mind Alyks didn't even use an SRS IIRC, he said he didn't have to) I would make the card like this:

Q: reading written in Katakana

A: Story made up of all the images for each kanji.

I think there are 307 separate readings (counting the non-joyo section) using the Movie Method spreadsheet provided on Alyks' site. http://drmoviemethod.blogspot.com/

my job: upon seeing the reading, recall the story and write out the kanji as I go along with the readings.

I'm debating switching over to that method, but since I'm at 1600 in RTK atm, I'm afraid to go back and start over yet again, and lose time. So since I'm already adding the readings to my stories in RTK using Alyks' spreadsheet (thank you btw) I'm just going to keep going this way.

I've started a method to learn Chinese hanzi, which turns out to be just Kanjichains. I'm not moving very quickly because of 2 reasons: I have other priorities, and I'm lacking in some creative juices.

Anyway, is there a worthwhile difference between Kanjitown, Kanjichains, and the Movie Method? I'm not an avid movie watcher, and I can't imagine placing/limiting my stories into areas of a town, but maybe I'm just missing something here.

yukamina Wrote:...and I can't imagine placing/limiting my stories into areas of a town, but maybe I'm just missing something here.

Perhaps it could be thought of as KanjiPlaces or KanjiUniverse.

But I don't see the importance of using locations. So far, my story settings are incidental(a by product of the story itself) and unrelated to other stories. Some phonetic groups are too small for more than a simple phrase.

I'm checking out alyks' blog right now. He says "The location within the movie would serve to indicate the meaning, which made it unnecessary to incorporate the meaning into the kanji mnemonic, and the movie itself would provide the onyomi pronunciation." Which I don't get.

Quote:Valley: 谷
I was reminded of the scene in the car, where Vincent accidentally shoots the guy. This is a good example of when you're instantly reminded of a scene, but you don't know why. When it happens, just go with it.
In this scene, Vincent is holding an umbrella in his mouth. He's kinda drooling saliva (visualized as two drops), too. Gross.[

How does this movie scene teach the meaning "Valley"? Also, how would you remember all the kanji used in one movie? It seems to just jump around to certain scenes that come to mind. In a kanjichain story, you would come across all the kanji simply by going through the story beginning to end.

Thunk: The focus on Onyomi is because it fairly structured and can be learned systematically outside of word/sentence methods. Kunyomi is not systematic, it was sort of shoe horned into the writing system. It was that reason you can have "signal primitives" to give the idea how to pronounce the Onyomi.

Harhol: your card set-up is sort of how I am doing now.

Kanjiwarrior: I don't think that's a good idea. With on to kanji, that would be upto 60 plus per pronunciation. Best to go Kanji to onyomi, then add on multiple reading as they come up.

Remember, it's ultimately about going over Japanese text and reading it out without thinking.

Yukamina, here's some rough things I've done: Use the movie as the overall onyomi binder. Now, some of the kanji had the same primitive, so for those I used a character or location from the movie to represent that primitive. For example, I used Star Wars for "Shi". In many kanji for that there is the primitive for "Gentleman/Samurai", so for those kanji images I have Luke Skywalker be the main character. For "director" it was Darth Vader, and "Next" it was Leia.

As for how we're memorizing kanji for the movie, I don't think that's the point. We not given the movie then told to present all the Kanji. By seeing the kanji or the keyword, it brings about the image your created using the movie. Since the image then reminds you of the movie, you also get the pronunciation as a side effect.

However, I think one could take that movie used and probably produce many of the kanji for it. This is similar to a kanji game I played where I tried to write out all the kanji using a similar primitive. It was just easier with a movie or show as I could "walk" through the locations of the movie and recall kanji scattered around the story. Not a purpose of the method, just a nifty by-product.

The movie method is kanji town (which is just memory palace). There's absolutely nothing new. It's just since Alyks posts here a lot of people have come to refer to this method using his name for it.

Kanji town/movie method is fundamentally different from kanji chains, however. In theory kanji chains run the risk of confusing entire groups of kanji if one of the story links becomes weak or is forgotten. In practice this may not be a problem, but kanji town would be a safer choice.

mafried Wrote:Kanji town/movie method is fundamentally different from kanji chains, however. In theory kanji chains run the risk of confusing entire groups of kanji if one of the story links becomes weak or is forgotten. In practice this may not be a problem, but kanji town would be a safer choice.

That sounds like it could be a problem for either method if it happens at all. How does kanji town keep it from happening?