So I finished RTK1 a couple weeks ago and I'm just now starting the sentences (though I have been keeping up with my SRS reps). I didn't know where to start mining, so I added some sentences from Khatzumoto's sentence starter packs. And so far, I've barely made any progress. I spent like an hour going over 5 sentences. I just can't seem to remember them at all. Like, I can identify all the words because I know the kanji, and I can read all the kana, but I just can't remember the readings for the kanji, even after going over the sentence like 10 times. It's really discouraging.

And another thing, with the sentence mining. If I find a sentence just somewhere on the internet, like in a forum or something, where do I get a translation of it to put on the answer side of the card? Like, Khatzumoto suggested mining sentences from 2ch.net, which seems like a good idea, but I have way to translate what they are saying, plus Khatzumoto said translating wasn't even a good idea. I tried to find the answer to this on his site, but I couldn't find him mention it anywhere, and nobody else asked it, which makes me feel like I'm the only person who is having this problem.

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks!

[edit]
Hmm, maybe now I'm thinking this was the wrong forum to post this in. General discussion would have probably been more appropriate. Woops!

http://smart.fm is a good (free) beginners' resource. Just copy & paste a kanji into the search box, select Sentences from the drop-down menu and voila. Just use any of the ones which are marked "created by Cerego". Most of them have full mp3 audio which you can right-click, Save As and add to Anki. Nothing particularly poetic, but it gets the ball rolling.

I think that I'm going to take the Kanji Odyssey route. It's said to progress in a very logical manner, and it makes sense and the readings stick with you.

As for making the readings stick? I haven't really gotten to that point yet, in the sense of Kanji Odyssey. With all the kanji I do know, it's because of exposure to them in different words that I am used to with different readings -- then I can just associate the readings with it.

edit: As for Japanese grammar and vocab, I'm pretty much set. I'm a pretty advanced student, I just can't read any kanji. Take this into account when reading my advice...

I also have recently finished RTK1 quite recently (Just a week ago) and this is the route I'm currently starting along with.

1. Review your RTK1 cards.
2. Go to Smart.fm and do a couple Core2000 lessons and Kanji Odyssey along with various interesting Japanese lessons on the way.
3. Do Tae Kim's grammar guide.

Notice that there is currently no sentences there at all. To me, I think it's logical to start with building a good knowledge on vocab and grammar before you start on sentences. Starting on sentences without having any to much knowledge of real Japanese at all is comparable to charging into an unknown territory with only a dictionary to help you out on. If you have spent some time learning a bit of vocab and grammar, it would only logically become much easier to do sentences and you can rely less heavily on those Japanese dictionaries for help on words you don't know. Think of it in a way where you complete a whole jigsaw puzzle without any pieces completed to completing the same puzzle with some pieces completed already for you.

I'm still a novice when it comes to Japanese and haven't really done the path for long term, so you might want to take my advice with a grain of salt.

1) Don't go "sentence mining," except for basic grammar. Most people here recommend Tae Kim, although there are plenty of other good resources. Personally I like Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication.

2) Getting an understanding of grammar and kanji readings are separate goals. Don't conflate the two. Since you're having trouble remembering readings, perhaps you should try the movie method. Best to focus solely on that until completion, then move on to grammar.

3) As soon as you knock back a basic set of kanji readings and grammar, stop sentence mining. Or rather, start sentence picking--doing things in Japanese and adding sentences to your SRS from natural sources and only as desired.

EDIT: 4) Never, ever, translate. Just leave it in Japanese with no translation. Figure out what it means of course, but don't write down a translation. Unless your translation comes from an official source, of course.

mafried Wrote:3) As soon as you knock back a basic set of kanji readings and grammar, stop sentence mining. Or rather, start sentence picking--doing things in Japanese and adding sentences to your SRS from natural sources and only as desired.

That is what sentence mining is. It's to get a book you're interested in and mine it for interesting stuff you didn't know. People who are using nothing but premade sources are the ones who has misunderstood what sentence mining is. Mining is all about finding the GOOD stuff, picking exactly the sentences you need.

True. Khatz had a post on this topic a few months back. IIRC he was discouraged that people were taking premade decks to the extreme and becoming sentence collectors. Sentence mining had come to mean this other activity of hoarding premade sentences in an SRS and spending all your study time doing reviews. So he introduced the term "sentence picking" as a way of refering to the original definition of sentence mining. That was the distinction which I was assuming in my post.

I think this is probably the hardest step, switching from RTK to sentancing, because your kind of on your own without a path to follow. I've decided im going to use "Japanese Sentence patterns....." to get the grammar down and some vocab.
I tried using the iKnow Core for a week and it bored my senseless, to go back to what feels like simple rote memorisation after the RTK learning feels like a huge step back.

I will go back to iKnow once im finished this book and sweep it for sentances, i just find it a chore. Its like a bunch of minigames as opposed to a learning tool, and the fact that doing your 10 review things always brings things up in the exact same order fools you into thinking you know something when you don't. its just your brain doing what its been trained to. find a pattern and give you the answer. so you know the answer without learning it. so next time it appears your blank on it. (what i found.. i prob just didnt spend long enough going over each thing)

kinda like rosetta in a way. You will learn that way after going over and over the word rote style. which begs the question, how is learning the stuff like this any better than just using a word list.

Maybe im being harsh, i duno. I'll go back to it once my grammar is of a little higher. See if i can find some enthusiasm for it.

mafried Wrote:2) Getting an understanding of grammar and kanji readings are separate goals. Don't conflate the two. Since you're having trouble remembering readings, perhaps you should try the movie method. Best to focus solely on that until completion, then move on to grammar.

3) As soon as you knock back a basic set of kanji readings and grammar, stop sentence mining. Or rather, start sentence picking--doing things in Japanese and adding sentences to your SRS from natural sources and only as desired.

I was wondering about sentences, too. Maybe I really should consider the movie method. Then add the sentences according to what I read.

harhol Wrote:http://smart.fm is a good (free) beginners' resource. Just copy & paste a kanji into the search box, select Sentences from the drop-down menu and voila. Just use any of the ones which are marked "created by Cerego". Most of them have full mp3 audio which you can right-click, Save As and add to Anki. Nothing particularly poetic, but it gets the ball rolling.

Oh cool, I didn't know about that resource. Thanks for the tip!

Asriel Wrote:I think that I'm going to take the Kanji Odyssey route. It's said to progress in a very logical manner, and it makes sense and the readings stick with you.

Yeah, I was thinking about getting Kanji Odyssey. But I want to give just plain old sentence mining a shot first.

Quote:As for making the readings stick? I haven't really gotten to that point yet, in the sense of Kanji Odyssey. With all the kanji I do know, it's because of exposure to them in different words that I am used to with different readings -- then I can just associate the readings with it.

They just stick, huh? Hmm... maybe I just need more exposure then...

Doorknob Wrote:I also have recently finished RTK1 quite recently (Just a week ago) and this is the route I'm currently starting along with.

1. Review your RTK1 cards.
2. Go to Smart.fm and do a couple Core2000 lessons and Kanji Odyssey along with various interesting Japanese lessons on the way.
3. Do Tae Kim's grammar guide.

Notice that there is currently no sentences there at all. To me, I think it's logical to start with building a good knowledge on vocab and grammar before you start on sentences. Starting on sentences without having any to much knowledge of real Japanese at all is comparable to charging into an unknown territory with only a dictionary to help you out on. If you have spent some time learning a bit of vocab and grammar, it would only logically become much easier to do sentences and you can rely less heavily on those Japanese dictionaries for help on words you don't know. Think of it in a way where you complete a whole jigsaw puzzle without any pieces completed to completing the same puzzle with some pieces completed already for you.

I'm still a novice when it comes to Japanese and haven't really done the path for long term, so you might want to take my advice with a grain of salt.

Yeah, that does make sense, considering that's the way people usually learn languages. But I liked the sound of Khatzumoto's method better, so I really do want to try that first. His method makes a lot of sense too, at least in theory.

mafried Wrote:1) Don't go "sentence mining," except for basic grammar. Most people here recommend Tae Kim, although there are plenty of other good resources. Personally I like Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication.
I shouldn't go sentence mining? That kind of contradicts what Khatzumoto suggests.

Quote:2) Getting an understanding of grammar and kanji readings are separate goals. Don't conflate the two. Since you're having trouble remembering readings, perhaps you should try the movie method. Best to focus solely on that until completion, then move on to grammar.

That also makes sense, in a traditional learning way.

Quote:3) As soon as you knock back a basic set of kanji readings and grammar, stop sentence mining. Or rather, start sentence picking--doing things in Japanese and adding sentences to your SRS from natural sources and only as desired.

That's really what I want to do from the start. I don't like the idea of downloading premade packs of sentences. The only problem is I don't know how to get the translations of sentences I find on the internet.

Quote:EDIT: 4) Never, ever, translate. Just leave it in Japanese with no translation. Figure out what it means of course, but don't write down a translation. Unless your translation comes from an official source, of course.

Okay, so I think I know what that means... but I'm having a hard time understanding how I could figure out what it means. And I guess that's where grammar comes in. But I guess I wanted to learn how to do it in the context of Khatzumoto's method.

Tobberoth Wrote:That is what sentence mining is. It's to get a book you're interested in and mine it for interesting stuff you didn't know. People who are using nothing but premade sources are the ones who has misunderstood what sentence mining is. Mining is all about finding the GOOD stuff, picking exactly the sentences you need.

Right. But what do you do once you find the sentences that you need?

Mafried Wrote:True. Khatz had a post on this topic a few months back. IIRC he was discouraged that people were taking premade decks to the extreme and becoming sentence collectors. Sentence mining had come to mean this other activity of hoarding premade sentences in an SRS and spending all your study time doing reviews. So he introduced the term "sentence picking" as a way of refering to the original definition of sentence mining. That was the distinction which I was assuming in my post.

Yeah, "sentence picking" was my original interpretation of what he meant by sentence mining.

Gingerninja Wrote:I think this is probably the hardest step, switching from RTK to sentancing, because your kind of on your own without a path to follow. I've decided im going to use "Japanese Sentence patterns....." to get the grammar down and some vocab.
I tried using the iKnow Core for a week and it bored my senseless, to go back to what feels like simple rote memorisation after the RTK learning feels like a huge step back.

Yeah, it probably is the hardest step, but it's also more exciting to me than learning the Kanji, at the idea is. I don't mind feeling lost... as long as I have at least some inkling of a direction to go in.

Quote:I will go back to iKnow once im finished this book and sweep it for sentances, i just find it a chore. Its like a bunch of minigames as opposed to a learning tool, and the fact that doing your 10 review things always brings things up in the exact same order fools you into thinking you know something when you don't. its just your brain doing what its been trained to. find a pattern and give you the answer. so you know the answer without learning it. so next time it appears your blank on it. (what i found.. i prob just didnt spend long enough going over each thing)

Hmm, I haven't checked out iKnow yet. But I don't like the idea of just doing a bunch of minigames.

Quote:kinda like rosetta in a way. You will learn that way after going over and over the word rote style. which begs the question, how is learning the stuff like this any better than just using a word list.

I tried Rosetta Stone once, but I didn't really like it. I just couldn't remember anything. But I didn't really stay with it for long. I know those things are designed to be long term. Then again, anything that has to do with learning a language is designed to be long term...

So it seems like the general consensus is opposed to Khatzumoto's advice, which is going from the Kanji straight to sentences, and learning the grammar as a "side affect" of learning sentences. In fact, he even goes so far to say that you shouldn't even try to learn the grammar on it's own. I do like the sound of that, and I'd really like to try that, for a while at least.

I would still really like to hear from somebody know has followed the AJATT method, if anybody here has. But in either case, I will definitely take your guys' advice into consideration.

Thanks for all the answers so far! Although I hope I can still get some more insight into the second question, which still is a bit fuzzy to me...

As I am in the final stretch of RtK (~150 left), I've begun some sentence mining. I have some basic grammar and a little vocab down besides. So I've started playing DS games in Japanese, starting with games that have minimal text (often lots of Katakana words). Switched my DS to Japanese interface, too. Between the game, interface, and the *instruction manual*, which has full furigana, I'm able to mine lots of interesting stuff, written at a proper but simplified level. I'm learning words in the wild and having fun doing it. I can't imagine just grabbing sentences picked out at random by other people. It would seem boring, and wouldn't have a lot of context.

As I'm playing the game and working through the manual at the same time, I find the context of the game I'm playing helps me to figure out what certain sections are talking about. This in turn helps to understand how they are describing a thing I understand already, which is pretty helpful.

Of course, I'm picking up tons of vocab and stuff, too.

Regarding your second question. I think that you still have to know basic Japanese grammar. I think after that, you can roughly know what Japanese sentences means just by finding the unknown words meaning. You can then learn new grammar by the context of the sentence, and get used to how the grammar is used.

I'm also against translating the whole sentence to English. I usually just have the meaning and reading of the unknown words on a new sentence in Anki.

So you should pick sentences that are just slightly higher than your level. If it's too difficult, then you'll be lost at trying to understand what the sentence means.

That's what I think, I hope it made sense.

I don't have time to address all the points, but regarding Khatzumoto and grammar: I think you are misunderstanding his advice. His posts about grammar not existing and such are of course way over the top as usual. But in one of his method posts he recommends starting with a grammar book as your first sentence mining source (and in a separate post, he admits that this is how he started too. that's why there's all those grammar books listed in the "literature" sidebar). A solid foundation in basic grammar is necessary before you can understand even the simplest sources. BUT (here's where the AJATT method comes in), he suggests you skim over or skip the English descriptions and just focus on the Japanese sentences.

This is exactly what I and others here are suggesting. We are recommending that you follow the AJATT method, and the most effective way to do so is to start with a source of basic i+1 grammar.

EDIT: And regarding translation, search the AJATT archives and you'll find he is extremely critical of translation. Antimoon even more so. You should never waste your time translating into English, and in fact doing so might negatively affect your ability (you will make mistakes, and these mistakes will by cemented by the process of translation, and again each time it comes up for review). Input before output. If you have a basic understanding of grammar, and are reading things at your level, then there should only be one or two things you don't understand about the sentence. Look these up so that you get it, then add the J-only sentence to your SRS as a reminder of that lesson.

Alright, that makes sense. It's very possible that I have misunderstood his advice. In fact, I know I have, otherwise I wouldn't be having this problem.

I think I'm going to give Tae Kim's grammar guide a shot. Everybody seems to be saying good things about it.

Yeah, I do know that both Khatzumoto and Antimoon are very against translating, and I do think I understand why that is.

Okay, I think this clears up my understanding a bit. Hopefully as I understand a bit more grammar my retention rate will increase a bit.

Okay, cool. Thanks for all the help! Hopefully now I'll start actually learning Japanese, rather than learning about learning Japanese.

[edit]
I just read the introduction to Tae Kim's grammar guide and I already really like it. He's coming at it from the same angle as Khatzumoto, which makes me feel less guilty about reading it. (I'm only kind of joking...)

Thanks again everybody for pointing me in the right direction!

I did RTK, then i did Tae Kim and put most of his example sentences in my Anki, and now I'm doing Kanji Odyssey. I think its a very good way to go about it because its a logical addition of kanji readings so I think it'll be more efficient in the learning of kanji readings as opposed to just mining things you like. But my plan is to do that after kanji odyssey.

I think there's a bit of confusion about what constitutes "learning grammar". Clearly, before you start mining sentences, you need to know the type of grammar that's being used in each sentence. Sentence mining in itself is learning grammar, because you're drilling rules over and over until you recognise them. What Khatz and others are against is the (common) practice of reading English sources which say things like, "This is the pluperfect subjunctive imperfect stem form, copy out these verb conjugations 100 times." Acquire a basic knowledge of each particle & form then mine sentences which contain them.

cloudstrife543 Wrote:I did RTK, then i did Tae Kim and put most of his example sentences in my Anki, and now I'm doing Kanji Odyssey. I think its a very good way to go about it because its a logical addition of kanji readings so I think it'll be more efficient in the learning of kanji readings as opposed to just mining things you like. But my plan is to do that after kanji odyssey.

Yeah, I may end up going the Kanji Odyssey route, but first I want to try find sentences on my own. It sounds fun to me.

harhol Wrote:I think there's a bit of confusion about what constitutes "learning grammar". Clearly, before you start mining sentences, you need to know the type of grammar that's being used in each sentence. Sentence mining in itself is learning grammar, because you're drilling rules over and over until you recognise them. What Khatz and others are against is the (common) practice of reading English sources which say things like, "This is the pluperfect subjunctive imperfect stem form, copy out these verb conjugations 100 times." Acquire a basic knowledge of each particle & form then mine sentences which contain them.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I was getting hung up on: what constitutes learning grammar. I guess I just needed the assurance that what I was doing wasn't precisely what he so strongly advised not doing. So thank you for giving an example of what he and everyone else are actually talking about, that really helps straighten it out in my mind.