Hi everyone!

I´m new here, and I gotta say - I LOVE this site! =)
Personally I´m a 19 year old young man (haha, I love to say "young man", don´t know why!) from far-away Norway. I´m currently studying music (the drums, baby!) full time (meaning at least 8 hours of work every day!). I truly have a passion for music, and I love being able to study it that much.
On the other hand I´ve always loved japanese culture, people and last, but not least the language. I just recently visited Tokyo and Nikko, and that was the "that´s it - I´m learning japanese!" moment for me!
Since my return to cold Norway I´ve browsed the net for different guides etc, and now I´ve started doing RTK1 (22 done, woho!). I´ve used AJATT for the most part, and lately this forum.

My problem is that I currently only have around 1 hour available to study japanese every day. It´s not a discipline problem, I´ve gotten plent of that through drumpractise, it´s just that the day only has so many hours.
According to AJATT one should do a whole lot of japanese every day, listening, reading and all of that good stuff! My problem is that I can´t do the 18-24 hours of japanese at this phase in my life, because of my studies. I can´t listen to j-music only, since I have to learn different types of music, and that is a crucial part of my learning (meaning listening to european, american, asian, african music etc.) I can´t watch TV (anime etc.) that much, since I´m behind my kit for the most part of the day.

But what I CAN do is to study japanese at least one hour every day, and I´m committed to do so during my studies (in 3 years I´ll have my bachelors in music education). Is this enough to get good progress in the language?
I know I won´t be fluent or anything without a lot of practise, but I guess working one hour a day is better than nothing?
My problem is that I get a whole lot of motivation reading AJATT, but it´s at the same time a bit depressing (well maybe not depressing, but you get my point), because I can´t "immerse" myself in all japanese, and I can´t watch j-tv, listen to j-pop etc. all the time!

I want to study japanese more (maybe full time?), after I´ve finished my bachelors degree. My goal is to be fluent (not native-level, but good enough to have conversations and read well). Will it be worth the effort to work 1 hour every day for my next three years? Or will it be wasting my time, since I´m not doing it enough?
I would really appreciate if some of you guys on here could share your experiences with learning the language, especially considering limited study-time per day.

I hope some of this made sense, this is just stuff I´ve been thinking about lately, and I just wanted some opinions on it. I learned english basically through TV and video-games at an early age, so I haven´t actively learned a language before, so this is all a bit new to me! So please be gentle, haha!

Thank you guys so much! I truly appreciate you taking the time to read this! =)

Yours sincerely,
Zorlee

Sure you can, it'll just take longer.

One hour a day is most certainly enough to get you started. It doesn't seem like much but if you're really committed to making the most of that hour every day, it can go a long way.

Now, AJATT has a lot of fans here so I expect some reactions but really what you read on that site should be taken with some critical thought. There are interesting ideas, also a lot of BS and overall Khatzumoto is like the motivational speaker of the online Japanese learning community. He's overly enthusiastic and extreme, so he gets a lot of attention (and seems to like it) but you shouldn't follow blindly everything he says.

Also it should be obvious, that a method meant for studying Japanese "all the time" isn't going to translate that well to studying one hour a day.

In fact, I'm not sure it's such a good idea to be doing the RtK now. It seems a more traditional approach to start learning Japanese using a textbook method would be be better suited to your schedule. You probably should be learning the basics of Japanese and not worry about kanji right now.

As you said a little bit is better than nothing, and you'll be surprised how even a little bit of Japanese makes a huge difference. Then when you get more free time, you'll be ready for more.

Yes. However, it will take a long time.

Unless you can spend some of your relaxation time watching anime (or j-drama), that is. If you can shoe-horn in some time to relax and just enjoy shows, you'll get a lot of valuable experience doing nothing. Then spend your 1 hour studying hard and you'll be good.

You won't learn as fast as these maniacs that spend 8 hours a day, but you will learn.

I work 40hrs per week and take 20hrs per semester of college classes and I completed RTK in a little over 3 months and am currently at about 1,700 sentences.

So yes it can be done even with a busy schedule and I'm willing to bet you can find more than 1 hour of study time if you look hard enough.

Thank you guys about the encouragement! It means a lot!
About anime/TV-shows in japanese etc. - Is it ok to watch these with english subtitles in the beginning? Or? I'm just wondering, since I wouldn't have a clue about what they're talking about at this point, if I don't have subtitles! =)

Zorlee Wrote:Thank you guys about the encouragement! It means a lot!
About anime/TV-shows in japanese etc. - Is it ok to watch these with english subtitles in the beginning? Or? I'm just wondering, since I wouldn't have a clue about what they're talking about at this point, if I don't have subtitles! =)

In my experience, using subtitles tends to make it difficult to focus on the actual audio. The key, I believe, is to rewatch things. Watch them once without aid, then once with subtitles to understand them better, and then without subtitles to practice listening and pick up vocabulary.

What you watch with subs doesn't count as practice. Simple as that.

1 hour every day for 3 years should get a Norwegian to the level where his/her Japanese is better than an average Japanese's English, but I personally think we should ban Scandinavians from this site. They all speak English fluently without even trying already and they are aiming for the third one. We should give them a hard time

Seriously, according to U.S. department of state, the level at which you should be after 1000 hours or so is probably around R1+ in this guideline.
http://www.govtilr.org/Skills/ILRscale4.htm#3

I say it is way beyond "worth it".

I've always admired people in music for their dedication and quite frankly I'm interested in how a drum player find mora based Japanese pronunciation. Welcome to the site! (I'm new here too though )

Haha! Then ban us already! Hoho =)

I guess I'll just watch anime/movies/tv-shows that I know the basic "plot" in, and just watch it. I will have to accept that I really can't understand a lot, but at least I get to familiarize myself with the language even more =)
Thanks again!

Yo Zorlee, do you have an ipod or mp3 player of some kind? Use it. As much as possible. Some people here may hate on Pimsluer or Jpod 101, but I think both are great places to start. AJATT is great, but not dogma. Get going on some basics. It will take a while to build the foundation, but consistency is key. If you can, get your portable mp3 player loaded up with pod casts of j speak and just listen to it all the damn time. I've learned a great deal of Japanese walking my dog, washing the dishes, heck even takin' a shit (just be careful not to drop the ipod in the toilet!). I think learning Hiragana/Katakana is a wise early investment too....Japanese felt a lot easier to me once I got super familiar with the syllable structures. I used the smartfm site to learn those (other people may have good advice on a good way to learn these). I got Pimsluer at my library, and though a bit dry, I enjoy it for what it's worth (great if you can get it free, not worth the buying). And the Jpod101 podcasts are free, and fun. Some people will be very strict in the "only Japanese-no English/subtitles" mind set....but I think it's important to start on familiar ground, and build a bridge into "japanese only" land. That said, toss your self in a sea of rapid fire native Japanese often too! Just keep challenging your self and progressing. I think Katz is right about input, but practice speaking too, it won't hurt your Japanese! I think a big part of AJATT is integrating Japanese into everything you can. You will find creative ways to do this, as well as your own rhythm. There is a lot of forum debate, advice, etc....take the best of it, leave the rest. Trust your instincts! And keep rocking Heisig! Just my advice (and I still suck at Japanese haha)!
頑張って！

My first post here, though I've used the site for a couple of years already.. Just thought I'd write something before we are banned once and for all...

Hi Zorlee, do I know you? A small digression maybe, you just made me a bit curious.. I'm also a music student for not-so-far-away Norway, currently studying for my master's degree in piano in Stavanger, after finishing my Bachelor's degree in Bergen last year.. Hvor studerer du?

So, the situation is pretty much the same for me.. I need to practice the piano for 5 - 8 hours a day, and have a quite limited time for my Japanese studies.. But hey, after about two years with Heisig, I'm up to 2600 kanji, and just an hour a day can take you quite far if you are prepared to keep at it for some years. If you have the passion, you can do anything! Personally I'm not aiming for fluency; in fact, I don't believe I will ever be able to speak Japanese, even at an elementary level. I would need much more time and more occasions to practice the language. But I really hope to reach some kind of reading fluency one day. I'm currently working my way through the Narnia-series in Japanese, and it's going surprisingly well, even though I use half the time flipping through my dictionary.. I must also admit I have a passion for grammar, so I bring my Dictionary of Basic / Intermediate Grammar with me at the bus or train, and read a few pages whenever I have a couple of minutes to spare.
So just study whenever you have the chance! As long as you find it enjoyable, you'll be amazed at the progress you make, even with the limited time you have available!

Subs are awesome. They allow you to hear words and figure out their meanings from the translation. This is much better than what you'll get from simply listening to what is, at the beginning, just gibberish.

A lot of people like to say they don't use subs, I guess it feels more like hardcore learning and they get to look down on the typical anime fan that way. But subs are really useful.

You need to want to learn though. Stay concentrated on what is being said and don't hesitate to pause the show and look up a word in the dictionary.

Subtitles stay useful until you get to a point where you would have the ability to understand what's going on in theory but are simply not able to hear and process Japanese at the required speed. When that happens, it's time to say goodbye to subs and get over that wall.

Also you don't have to go 100% one way or the other. It makes much more sense to actually watch some with subtitles some without. At the beginning watch most shows with subs and as your progress, start watching more and more unsubbed shows.

Wow, great stuff guys! I really appreciate it!

I do have an iPod, so I´ll definitely get some of those pod-casts! I´ll try to do more and more "small things" to japanize my every-day life, haha!
I usually watch tv-series during 1-2 hours of my drum-practising, when I´m only working on technique on my so-called "practise-pad" (it´s basically a drum that is very quiet). I´ll try to watch J-shows only during that time, or maybe just listen to the podcasts!

Great suggestions and tips, you guys, it truly means a lot for a beginner like me! =)


Toddi: Hi man - I live in Stavanger, haha! What a small world, right? (And even smaller country ) Are you studying classical music, or jazz? This year I´m studying for myself, running my own game, just practising. I got accepted at UIA (Rytmisk musikk i Kristiansand), so I´ll be heading off for Sørlandet next year.
Bergen? Great stuff! Do you know Erik Eikill (jazz guitarist)? I know him very well, and he´s on his 4th year at Grieg now! =)

Alright man, you're ready to rock some serious 日本語！I think Codexsus is spot on about subs. One thing I find helpful is being organized with my time (Katz has good advice about this). I have a 3x5 daily calender that I record my study progress in. I track 3 categories. L (# of hours of any active or passive listening, movies, podcasts, and true AJATT style....in my sleep LOL), K (kanji, the # of new added kanji, and # and %correct on reviews here), and S (sentences, #added, and # of rep's in Anki). I set monthly goals to help motivate, and also have some middle range/seasonal goals written down as well. Doing this gives me good feedback, and it has the effect of motivating me to raise the bar for myself each month. And it takes very little time to do! I mention this, because I think that if you are genuinely motivated to learn Japanese, you will find better ways to mix it in and prioritize all aspects of your life. Having some degree/system of organization may well give you more clarity, and can be one of the most valuable things you can do for yourself (please excuse my banter if you are already doing this LOL). You will find that the self limiting ideas you start with (1 hour a day), will adjust/change to your goal/motivation. And you will start to notice things in your life, choices that you make, that you no longer will want/have time for.

OR NOT LOL! I'm really just telling you how learning Japanese has changed my life. I think this is what happens when you become passionate about learning. It certainly has been the case for me.

And I think you are experiencing what others here have as well. You had that moment when you made a clear choice that you would learn Japanese! There's no turning back (unless you do LOL)!

On one level, it's about learning Japanese. On a deeper level, it is about personal growth, and connection to a larger world. The strategies you develop for this are relevant to every aspect of your current and future life!

I'd like to disagree with the subtitle comments.

From my experience you barely ever pick out truly new words from subs, except ones that are extremely obvious from the context. When people say "they are useful when you first start out", that doesn't really make much sense if you really stop to think about it.

If you are truly just starting out then you don't have any grasp of the language structure (aka grammar) nor vocabulary. Yet, instead of completely focusing on trying to get use to that you sit there and try to force the Japanese to line up with a language that is structured completely different and that can almost never been translated literally from the Japanese source? This is exactly what you don't need to be doing as a beginner. I still consider myself a complete beginner but with just my very basic grammar understanding and low level vocabulary I'm constantly seeing examples where the subs are not even in the ball park of representing what is being said on screen. I can only imagine how I'd feel if I was at an advanced level.

I mean at first I thought like most of you. The whole "man I'm not getting anything from this" but trust me when I say that changes relatively fast. Remember you're trying to learn Japanese, which means picking out words and figuring out meaning of a sentence structure IN Japanese. If you have an English cheat sheet with you the whole time then you're not forcing your brain to do anything except read.....in the language you're not trying to learn.

That and the biggest proof of all is simply all of the crazy anime fans out there that have been watching subbed anime for 10+ years that still know less Japanese than what you could teach someone in a single afternoon.

If you have to watch subs do it as other people mentioned. Watch it once with the subs to just get the general gist of the film and then go raw from then on.

activeaero Wrote:That and the biggest proof of all is simply all of the crazy anime fans out there that have been watching subbed anime for 10+ years that still know less Japanese than what you could teach someone in a single afternoon.

While I disagree with your opinion on subs, I respect your other arguments. But not this one. And it's unfortunately being repeated all the time on forums and is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that some people like to look down on anime fans.

Off course, people who are not trying to learn Japanese are not going to learn anything by watching anime. D'oh. You have to want to learn, pay attention to what you're hearing and also be studying Japanese so that you can learn new things that you will then be able to hear in context and reinforce.

I agree that you can't pick up everything from context. The whole point of watching tv shows in Japanese is not to magically learn the language by just watching tv (wouldn't that be nice?) but to reinforce what you've learned. But that works equally well with subbed shows and you get the additional benefit of figuring stuff from context much more easily. It doesn't matter that the translation isn't literal, what matters is that you know what's going on.

Now, if you enjoy non subbed shows more than subs continue to watch them. It certainly isn't wrong to watch them that way. But convincing beginners that they absolutely have to quit subs or they won't learn anything is harmful.

It's much better to enjoy subbed Japanese that you can understand and get enthusiastic about it and have a real interest in something Japanese than forcing yourself through a few episodes of something you don't understand because you think you have to in order to make progress.

Now watching the same episode both subbed and unsubbed is great but if you don't have a lot of time available you have to make some choices.

Codexus, this is my personal experience talking so it may not apply to anyone else. When I watched with English subs, I 'tuned out' the Japanese even when I didn't want to do that. It was happening automatically.

Same thing happens when I play Japanese in the background on TV or on my iPod and browse English websites. I'm tuning out the Japanese. I'm not even getting the benefit of passive exposure.

The one exception to this I noticed was putting a video on loop. Then the background "noise" starting taking shapes my mind remembered and got distracted from my English browsing. So maybe the same can happen if one "loops" or watches the same show many times with English subs. You can forget about concentrating on the English as you know, and your mind starts latching on the Japanese part.

Nothing scientific, just stuff I'm noticing about myself.

activeaero Wrote:I still consider myself a complete beginner but with just my very basic grammar understanding and low level vocabulary I'm constantly seeing examples where the subs are not even in the ball park of representing what is being said on screen. I can only imagine how I'd feel if I was at an advanced level.

How do you imagine you'd feel at an advanced level?
Often with long sentences, the first half in Japanese is the second half in English.

Codexus Wrote:I agree that you can't pick up everything from context. The whole point of watching tv shows in Japanese is not to magically learn the language by just watching tv (wouldn't that be nice?) but to reinforce what you've learned. But that works equally well with subbed shows and you get the additional benefit of figuring stuff from context much more easily. It doesn't matter that the translation isn't literal, what matters is that you know what's going on.

Now, if you enjoy non subbed shows more than subs continue to watch them. It certainly isn't wrong to watch them that way. But convincing beginners that they absolutely have to quit subs or they won't learn anything is harmful.

You're saying anime fans don't want to learn Japanese? That sure doesn't explain why every anime forum ever have a "japanese language" section where people make belief that they understand more than the random "baka" or "neko".

One thing is certainly true: The human mind can only, actively, concentrate on one thing at a time. If you're actively reading text, you're not actively listening to what is being said. The only way to actually hear the Japanese being spoken is to ignore the subs, something most people can't do, which is why they learn nothing except possibly reading English.

I think people should watch anime with subs as much as they want, they shouldn't expect to learn anything at all from it though. Since I started learning Japanese, I've watched hours upon hours of subbed Japanese stuff and I've never learned anything but extremely common set phrases such as ふざけるな and 失礼します. Parsing Japanese and actively listening takes 100% of your concentration for someone who is a beginner. Expecting to do this while reading subs is being completely unreasonable.

Quitting subs isn't harmful. It's extremely beneficial. As long as you're good enough to do it, you should do it... and probably 50% or more of all people who study Japanese seriously are good enough to do it, they just aren't realizing it.

Telling people that they can actively reinforce what they have learned by watching subbed anime... now THAT'S harmful. They will waste hours upon hours thinking they are reviewing their knowledge when they are in fact just enjoying Japanese cartoons.

activeaero Wrote:If you have to watch subs do it as other people mentioned. Watch it once with the subs to just get the general gist of the film and then go raw from then on.

I do the opposite. The first time I watch an episode, I watch it without subs, to get the gist of the story and to enjoy the show, then rewatch it with subs + dictionary lookups, paying attention to all the small details. (subs delayed by a few seconds, so that I can hear the entire sentence before seeing the text).

Tobberoth Wrote:You're saying anime fans don't want to learn Japanese? That sure doesn't explain why every anime forum ever have a "japanese language" section where people make belief that they understand more than the random "baka" or "neko".

So you think that there are anime fans who are studying Japanese every day and fail to learn anything beyond neko just because they are watching their anime with subs? The lack of results of people who aren't doing anything to learn Japanese is normal and has nothing to do with the question of whether subs are good or not. Using them as an example to make a point is ridiculous.

Now as I've said, you need to concentrate so that you stay attentive to both the spoken dialog and the subs. I don't find that especially difficult but your results may vary.

Sure it's possible, you're not going to stay concentrated all the time, but personally I find it easier to stay concentrated when there are subs. When I can't follow the dialog, I'm easily distracted and start thinking about other things instead of listening.

I watch mostly subs and I notice the new things I've just learned all the time, I also usually pick up a few new words and also when I read something that could be interesting in the translation I go back and listen to that part again.

I think a new language is a gradual process. Each step should come when one is ready to take it. At some point, the subs will go but I'm not there yet and trying to rush that wouldn't be beneficial.

Codexus Wrote:I think a new language is a gradual process. Each step should come when one is ready to take it. At some point, the subs will go but I'm not there yet and trying to rush that wouldn't be beneficial.

My experience is the direct opposite. I passed JLTP2 before I realized that the reason I couldn't watch unsubbed Japanese wasn't that my skill lacked, it was that I simply thought I needed subs. After a few hours forced watching without subs, I realized the subs was holding me back. I'm sure someone can do it at a much earlier level and benefit tons from it. Instead of giving up after 1 minute and falling back to subs, I just kept looking and found that I understood tons without the subs and this time around, I heard everything said, clear as day.

Ironically, I'm approaching a point where I think I'm cheating by watching a Japanese show with Japanese sub-titles. It's a nice place to be at, but it's far from understanding with spoken dialogue alone. I realize it's becoming a crutch when I'm avoiding, umm, acquiring a show that doesn't have subtitles.

Over time, we must slowly remove our crutches and add on the pressure.

Ultimately, I guess we should go no subtitles at all (even the Japanese ones).