Tobberoth Wrote:You're forgetting the concept of mining if you're afraid of repetition. You shouldn't input every single sentence you find, no matter what source. You should only mine new things. If you do genki and AAP and you already know a sentence in AAP from Genki, simply don't input it.

That's fair enough too, but I also want to make sure I'm using my time as efficiently as possible. If using only one of those sources is sufficient for my needs, then it would be a waste of time to work through both. So, what do you recommend? Any preference on AAP, Tae Kim, Dirty Guide? Or a combination that you think might work?

jorgebucaran Wrote:Guys how important do you think it is to go through Tae Kim guide? What about just inputing sentences into my SRS and let my brain complete everything? I don't know if that makes sense so that's why I am asking.

You need to understand the basics of grammar or else you'll never be able to comprehend a single sentence. Just read up to the end of the "essential grammar" section. Of course nothing is stopping you from mining the sentences on Tae Kim...

So do you think the AJATT method is incomplete? Because I remember it was never said to study the grammar. What do you think? I am getting ready to start mining sentences very soon so whatever tip would be greatly appreciated.

jorgebucaran Wrote:So do you think the AJATT method is incomplete? Because I remember it was never said to study the grammar. What do you think? I am getting ready to start mining sentences very soon so whatever tip would be greatly appreciated.

Well, if you read AJATT again, you'll see that All About The Particles is mentioned constantly. That's grammar.

In fact, Khazu specifically states that you should only enter sentences you understand. If there is grammar in the sentence you can't comprehend, you're not supposed to put it in your SRS.

When AJATT people tell you to ignore grammar, they usually mean "Enter example sentences into Anki instead of reading long boring explanations", they don't mean "Who cares about understanding, just push gibberish into your brain".

Very good. Makes perfect sense.

1. What do you think is the best place to get this "essential grammar"? Tae Kim? All About Particles?

2. How can I measure my understanding of the grammar to input a sentence? In other words, how do I know I am ready to input the sentence?

3. Where is a reliable (like sentences are valid) source for sentences? I understand there will be a lot of research and struggle, but since I am just getting started, I just want to go through the "basics" as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Yeah, not the grammar flamewar again.

We do practice grammar, but we don't memorize grammar explanations or conjugation tables.
Reading explanations does only good, but you'll only benefit from it after real, quality input.
Just remind yourself that instead of practicing your English, reading explanations in English, you could practice Japanese, reading something fun in Japanese.

http://onhowtolearn.blogspot.com/2009/04...ctice.html

Jorge,

There's many resources to draw from for your beginner pleasure. For grammar, there's Kodansha's resources such as All About Particles, or Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar, or Japanese for Everyone or Tae Kim, or even Kanzen Master 4th and 3rd kyuu (well, do those exist and have they been mined?). Like Mentat said, it's not about memorizing the rules that are kind of arbitrary when they go against real Japanese (ie sh..tuff your gonna read in manga and hear on TV). However, it's basic so it's going to pretty much apply to a large part of what you're going to read.

It seems the learning portion of AJATT is a fine balancing act for the individual. You can, after doing a basic grammar resource like above, go about mining whatever you like. Khatzumoto and Alyks both report great success with that (Alyks with a bit more fervor imho ^^) . Guys like Ghinzdra did Grammar and Vocabulary resources and report success. I get the feeling the binding element is they're enjoying Japanese outside of their study time. So don't forget to add that into the mix.

To answer your questions directly:

1. Tae Kim: It's a free resource, it is progressive, has reasonable explanations with variances for actual Japanese. Supposedly can get you to the JLPT3 level for grammar which is more than enough for the beginning. Again, there are other resources just as good, but this one is free.

2. For structured resources, just follow along. You can assume that it's just enough to challenge you. Now, if it has an complicated word in it just replace it with a simpler word, especially in grammar sentences. Note, if the word is the grammar being taught don't change it.

3. I listed grammar sentences above. There's also resources for vocabulary sentences. In addition, using subs2srs will make a gold mine of potential, real world sentences. I like that as if you use a text based sub-title, you can then do quick copy/paste with online dictionaries for quicker understanding. There's also manga that have furigana for easier inputs. Reason I list those two is it's easier to type in sentences if you can either copy/paste or have furigana.

Like I told others, there are many choices, all are the correct ones. Just take 5 minutes, make the hard decision and stick with it.

jorgebucaran Wrote:1. What do you think is the best place to get this "essential grammar"? Tae Kim? All About Particles?

Tae Kim is good because it's free and because it presents Japanese grammar as Japanese grammar; in other words, it doesn't attempt to translate it into accessible English. If you read to the end of the "Essential Grammar" section you'll have enough knowledge to tackle most basic sentences and a couple hundred example sentences to boot. All About Particles is a good book to use in addition to Tae Kim, but probably not instead of.

jorgebucaran Wrote:2. How can I measure my understanding of the grammar to input a sentence? In other words, how do I know I am ready to input the sentence?

To start with, only use Japanese sentences that come with a translation. Make sure you understand the function of each part of the sentence and what it means. When you're sure of everything, put it into the SRS. If you aren't sure of everything, either re-read Tae Kim or find another sentence.

jorgebucaran Wrote:3. Where is a reliable (like sentences are valid) source for sentences? I understand there will be a lot of research and struggle, but since I am just getting started, I just want to go through the "basics" as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Most people here use either the Core 2000 & Core 6000 lists on smart.fm or Kanji Odyssey. smart.fm is free, has audio, teaches you the most common words in order of popularity (at the expense of logical Kanji ordering) and their lists can be imported directly into Anki. Kanji Odyssey costs money, also has audio, presents the Kanji in a more logical order (at the expense of logical vocab ordering) and comes with a reference book. It's your call. Of course you don't have to use either of these, but there's a reason they're so popular.

Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

@harhol: How can I import the list directly into Anki?

Download & install the newest version of this plugin.
Then go to the Tools menu in Anki.

EDIT: Actually I forgot you can just install plugins through Anki. Just go File >> Download >> Shared Plugin. It's currently the fifth most popular, listed as Smart.FM - Improved Importing.

I'm about halfway through Tae Kim Essential and I have nothing but praise for it. It is *so* much more effective than my textbook (Yookoso). When I was relying on my textbook I just did not understand what was happening in each sentence.

Then I moved to Tae Kim, where I briefly read over the explanations and then get right into mining sentences. If I don't understand straightaway I'm not too worried since I will eventually reach a level of exposure where it just clicks. For example, about a week after starting Tae Kim a friend in my Japanese class asked me "how did you know that [grammar point]?". My initial response was "I don't know, it just sounds right". After thinking about it for a bit, I realised it was one of the points covered by Tae Kim that I had never thought I "grasped" from the explanation...but I knew how to use it because of the example sentences.

So there is another +1 for Tae Kim. And if not Tae Kim then definitely, definitely something with lots of example sentences and which is easily mineable. Plus if you really concentrated on it, I think you could get through Tae Kim up to the end of Essentials with a few days of solid effort. I would say that a few days work is more than worth it to get a fundamental understanding of japanese grammar.