Thora Wrote:And don't forget that not everyone is a single, unemployed student who can ignore family, social and civic commitments.

Actually...

Yonosa Wrote:One year? To get to 1750 on RTK?...You've got to be kidding me...

I did finish, Yonosa I just had to have another go at it. The second time only took about three months.

Thora Wrote:Yonoso - Don't forget that many people elect to do RTK in conjunction with other Japanese learning - not as a first step. And don't forget that not everyone is a single, unemployed student who can ignore family, social and civic commitments.

Thank you!! I've noticed other people on here do that and it really annoys me. Everyone is learning at their own pace and we all do good.

Yonosa Wrote:One year? To get to 1750 on RTK?...You've got to be kidding me...

Sorry for the hate. But....if you aren't more motivated you may as well reevaluate your situation.

or some of us just struggle with the method. If one method fitted all there would not be different books/ideas out there any everyone would be fluent in 2 years.

People work at their own pace. This seems an arrogant attitude and not very friendly.

Just because someone likes something or its their hobby doesn't mean they have to be great at it. I am very poor at Japanese, esp for the time I have spent on it. But I enjoy it. So from that side its not a waste of time.

@yonosa

Poorly worded. Think you may have topped Mr. Tobberoth when it comes to being frank.

10 minutes a day will get you through it, though. .

*dodges shoe*

@先輩

I don't choose to ignore family, social, and civic duties. They choose to ignore me 涙.

@atylmo

Good job, now you just have ten more years of drudgery to reach the reach absurd standard that is "high level." Once you reach that level, "high level" will then shift to the unobtainable even by native standards. Fluency is a lie!

@Koos83

Perhaps those who move at a slower pace annoy Yonosa. Perhaps there are those who are annoyed by those who paces themselves at a moderate speed as well. Perhaps....

@shihoro

Please keep the insults to a minimum. Also, what is a wind-up merchant?

@AmberUK

One method does fit all. Save for those special cases, we are not really so varied when it comes to learning. This insistence on learning styles and their dramatic impact seems like no more than mild fatalism. That's not to say they don't have an impact, just, it is motivation and dedication that vary to such great degrees.

If you dedicate yourself to ten minutes a day for a year, you should have no problem completing RTK1. Does that mean you will remember every kanji with perfect recall at that point? No? Same as for the individual 先輩 described when he/she finishes RTK.

What I guess I'm trying to say is, the points we struggle with are motivation and dedication, not the method itself.

kazelee Wrote:@AmberUK

One method does fit all. Save for those special cases, we are not really so varied when it comes to learning. This insistence on learning styles and their dramatic impact seems like no more than mild fatalism. That's not to say they don't have an impact, just, it is motivation and dedication that vary to such great degrees.

If you dedicate yourself to ten minutes a day for a year, you should have no problem completing RTK1. Does that mean you will remember every kanji with perfect recall at that point? No? Same as for the individual 先輩 described when he/she finishes RTK.

What I guess I'm trying to say is, the points we struggle with are motivation and dedication, not the method itself.

With all due respect, (and ONLY because atm your in charge) what rot. What total rubbish. But I have seen several of your comments so this one is at the normal standard.

If everyone was the same and learned the same we would all be good at the same subjects, we are not. Some people may take 10mins a day others may take an hour. Some will still not get it no matter how much time they take.

kazelee Wrote:@atylmo
Good job, now you just have ten more years of drudgery to reach the reach absurd standard that is "high level." Once you reach that level, "high level" will then shift to the unobtainable even by native standards. Fluency is a lie!

Don't remind me Fun-sucker-outer.

AmberUK Wrote:With all due respect, (and ONLY because atm your in charge)

Hit me with your worst. I'm cool like that ^^

AmberUK Wrote:what rot. What total rubbish. But I have seen several of your comments so this one is at the normal standard.

Touche <(￣□￣; )>

Okay... maybe not "that" cool. That's just rude.

AmberUK Wrote:If everyone was the same and learned the same we would all be good at the same subjects, we are not.

Applying an exaggerated version of your logic... everyone with a low IQ's would be rich. They'd just have an aptitude for making money while those with high IQ's could barely form sentences.

And yet.... we all know what one plus one equals... we all know that blood is pumped throughout the body via the heart... we all know how to tell time... Save for those specials cases that is...

I made no mention as to one's level of proficiency, recall percentages, or anything of the like. If you can read, you can finish RTK in a year at 10 minutes a day. No?

AmberUK Wrote:Some people may take 10mins a day others may take an hour. Some will still not get it no matter how much time they take.

There's not much to get. Even if you suck at memorizing stories, once you go through the entire book, you will have remembered a large quantity if only by exposure to the content alone.

The key to any method however is consistency. Studying a single subject for 7 hours straight on Sunday is no where near a beneficial as studying for one hour each day, or two hours every other day. Those individual who study forever and do not "get it" are, most likely, very inconsistent.

Saying that some people will never "get it" is along the same vein as saying some people are just born musicians. They may have a aptitude for a subject, but without constant consistent study, they are easily passed by those more dedicated. I can say this from personal experience. ^^

Tis not neither rot nor rubbish. It's hard for some to accept this level of responsibility.

atylmo Wrote:Don't remind me Fun-sucker-outer.

Sry about that. ｆ（＾＾；）

kazelee Wrote:Applying an exaggerated version of your logic... everyone with a low IQ's would be rich. They'd just have an aptitude for making money while those with high IQ's could barely form sentences.

And yet.... we all know what one plus one equals... we all know that blood is pumped throughout the body via the heart... we all know how to tell time... Save for those specials cases that is...

Once again you make a special kind of sense.

Those special cases, mmmmm. That would be those not finishing the book and restating several times. People are not failing because of lack of effort and dedication. Its just not so easy for some people. I don't see why this is such a difficult idea. Why is it so bad? If it were so easy as 10mins a day and a year later your done then this would be a very quiet forum. Saying some cannot do it doesn't make it a bad method, its not an insult to the author. Its just how it goes.

I think its more useful to help and try and work out why some people are having problems. Help find the work around. Saying its just about being regular and keeping at it does not. More practical help, less party line please.

I'm going to be really controversial here and got back to the OP. Enough of the "you said, I said" rubbish. You guys are far better/mature than that - i hope.

Anyway I don't understand the whole start over thing. Say for example you get to 1200 done then drop RTK for whatever reason. You can't have completely forgotten all 1200. Surely a decent percentage would have really stuck - even if it was say 25% for example. Why redo the stories for 300 kanji? Isn't it more efficient just to redo (or reanalyse) the ones you fail?

@shihoro
Out of curiousity (and with the beautiful benefit of hindsight) what would you have done differently if you had to start from scratch again? I'm curious because I really think modern culture/customs/business practice etc. is greatly neglected in the japanese studies of most learners.

AmberUK Wrote:Once again you make a special kind of sense.

Ill take that as a complement.^^

AmberUK Wrote:Those special cases, mmmmm. That would be those not finishing the book and restating several times. People are not failing because of lack of effort and dedication.

Who's failing and how so? Do we define failing as above or below a certain retention rate? What rate would that be?

How would a person on frame 400 know whether or not his/her current retention rate would be a reflection of his rate when s/he's reached the final frame, especially when one doesn't really see much (emphasis on much) ROI until after finishing RTK?

I just erased a ton'a'more questions....

AmberUK Wrote:Its just not so easy for some people. I don't see why this is such a difficult idea. Why is it so bad?

Didn't mean to make any implications of good/bad. It's not easy for anyone, really. I myself even gave it up.... because it was sooo hard getting past 400. However, a couple of months later, when I made the decision to do it, and do it no matter what, everyday, now matter if I recalled everything or not, to just push through, I was able to finish.

In typical seminar fashion, I set a goal, made it public, and went about it.

It only after you're done where you see those kanji that truly slipped through the cracks, rework them and hammer them down.

Heck the last 50 or so in the Core 2000 are still giving a headache. If I stopped when I first didn't remember them I'd be down a lot of vocab.

AmberUK Wrote:If it were so easy as 10mins a day and a year later your done then this would be a very quiet forum. Saying some cannot do it doesn't make it a bad method, its not an insult to the author. Its just how it goes.

Then ask yourself, "This may be how it goes, but what would I be doing right now if it wasn't how things go?"

Because how it goes is not determined by right now. It's determined by your progress a year from now. If you spend each day progressing for 10 minutes a day for a year and you got absolutely nowhere, then it may be very well be that "it's just how it goes" for you. But if you're on frame 500 (and you haven't been doing it consistently) is that enough to honestly say the method doesn't work?

AmberUK Wrote:I think its more useful to help and try and work out why some people are having problems. Help find the work around. Saying its just about being regular and keeping at it does not. More practical help, less party line please.

How about this: Just do it.

Even further:

To just do it no matter what, without questioning everything, without focusing too much on things like recall percentages, is the most practical information anyone could give. There is no magic bullet nor silver pill. Just do it. If that doesn't work, look at what other people just did (their stories) and do the same. The more consecutive days you spend doing it, the quicker you get used to the easiness and uncertainty. Even if you have to find another method, at the end of the day you still gotta do it.

Not enough?

Join in on a thread or start one of your own where you keep track of your progress set a target date, keep updating regularly, encourage and get encouragement from other users. Tell your negy friends and family all about it. Sacrifice a goat if that's what it take to get you moving. Even Donald Trump could do 5 kanji a day and he's one of the most busy men on the planet (though that might make an argument for him being special). Also, you'd feel mighty silly trying to make an excuse (to your newfound audience) for skipping 5 days in a row, when you could knock em out during your lunch break.^^

Once you get halfway through you'll have invested enough time to want to see it through, rip out your eyeballs, or some weird combination of the two and a third or fourth unknown.

Instead of dissecting the party line just bite. I finally did. Once I found out how juicy the bait tasted I gave no mind to the hook in my jaw. ^^

Worst case scenario... you meet your goal (albeit a little after the set date) :\

Wait... you were talking about a different kind of line weren't you?

shihoro Wrote:Stating someone is rude when clearly they are is well within an insult minimum, but I take your point.

I think I was more focused on the the "childish, wind up merchant." I wasn't sure what level of insult it was. From your description it seems like you meant troll. Interesting story BTW.

I think it's great hearing from people like Shihoro to counterbalance the kanjicentric attitude here. A reminder that folks do become proficient in spoken Japanese without kanji (but kanji will take us beyond the inevitable plateau). There are definite advantages to tackling RTK after acquiring some foundation in the language. (yeah, I know I'm becoming a bit of a broken record - just trying to balance what I perceive as a strong bias here in favour of starting with RTK.)

For anyone else restarting RTK years later (like dewick and me), I found the knowledge hadn't disappeared, it just needed to thaw out. The pace gradually picks up and the renewed memories feel far more solid after Round 2. If you've retained some Japanese, consider incorporating Japanese keywords.

@dewick: Thanks for making your site available - very interesting history and perspective.

Rooboy Wrote:Anyway I don't understand the whole start over thing. Say for example you get to 1200 done then drop RTK for whatever reason. You can't have completely forgotten all 1200. Surely a decent percentage would have really stuck - even if it was say 25% for example. Why redo the stories for 300 kanji? Isn't it more efficient just to redo (or reanalyse) the ones you fail?

If you are going to have to restudy 75% again anyway, then why not start over? In my experience as someone who has tried both ways, relearning 1200 in the book sequence is much much faster than failing 900 and restudying them all in random order. You don't have to redo your stories; you can just tweek them or perhaps just a quick rereading is often sufficient to jog your memory. Like you said, a decent percentage do stick quite well. Because relearning is so much easier, you still have time to do other studies at the same time (which reinforces the kanji you are relearning).

I finished RTK last winter, quit reviewing to do other Japanese studies, realized I was forgetting kanji and came back this summer to 1500 expired cards. Restarting helped me learn them better (95% daily reviews correct vs. low 80s the first time) and consequently, the number I have to review each day is small. For me it was much more painless than having a huge pile of failed cards over my head day after day and massive reviews.

Best of luck to the OP with your studies.

Wow, explosive thread.

kioku3 Wrote:Best of luck to the OP with your studies.

Thanks. And thanks to everyone else for chiming in.

And yeah, the reasoning for starting over is as kioku3 said. It's easier to go through again in book order, and the expired and failed cards become impossible to manage (and intimidating). I'd rather just clear it all out and let the weak ones fall through. Easier sections can be blasted through so it's not losing too much time (+ extra reinforcement yay)

Off-topic: I finished RTK in July That doesn't mean I'm any better for it though. Stupid lack of imagination.

shihoro Wrote:I see I wrote 'I wish I had a better grasp of polite language'. I should have said honorific language - Keigo. The polite language was not always polite enough.

Many thanks for your detailed response shihoro - interesting stuff. Have started new topic as a result:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...8#pid71398

I started over recently myself. As other posters pointed out, a huge pile of reviews in random order becomes daunting and inefficient. Starting over is great because it makes reconnecting the old knowledge (as Thora said "thaw out") happen much faster. For me the biggest challenge was trying to remember how to draw the damn primitives. The story might be there, but I couldn't remember how to draw them! With a pile of 1200 reviews, I did about 200, and passed less than 25%. Most of the fails were based on one primitive or detail being off, but still fails none the less. It was super frustrating!

Starting over is a breeze. When I did it the first time I wrote each kanji and it's story in notebooks. Now I just read through them, and it's instant "thaw out"! Before I was passing at high 70's, low 80's. Now I'm about 800 in, and pass rates are 95-97%. Granted these are well learned, older kanji. But I am really enjoying starting over, and will be "done" fairly soon. I try and add about 30-80 a day, and it takes little time since I'm not writing stories. I really am glad I started over, and will perhaps know them better down the road then if I had not done it this way. It may sound inefficient to some people to redo it, but in reality it rocks!

I did an equivalent of starting over, but in my case it was for grammar sentences. I started with UBJG then switched over to Tae Kim a few months later.

Like other I just went fast through the stuff that was familiar or easy, but eventually I got to a point I was learning new material and the pace smoothed out. I let the SRS control the review pace after that.

In addition, there is another minor "starting over" I'll be trying when I reset timing on my recognition Kanji cards that I've learned Onyomi via movie method. For those I may set initial timing at 5 to 6 weeks then let the resulting reviews fix the spacing.

About the time it takes to do RTK1: It's all about the hours. The less time you put in per day, the more days it'll take. I think the total time invested will be about the same for everyone. Doing RTK1 for 8 hours a day and finishing in a month is no more special than doing it 4 hours a day for two months or 2 hours a day for four months (my case). Everyone put in roughly same number of study/review hours.