So I've started on RTK again from the beginning. I've tried it a few times, making it as far as the middle, but quit every time. This time I'm determined to get all the way thru! One motivator is that I've been in Japan 3 years and still can barely speak Japanese. ugh. Embarrassment is a good motivator!!

At any rate, how do you guys recommend studying the kanji? What I'm doing now is going thru about 10-20 (more if I have time) in the morning, taking time to try to get the story really good. I could possibly do more, but I think in the past I've burnt myself out from trying to go to quickly and forcing myself to do too many. So I'm starting at a more relaxed pace this time. I can always speed it up later once I get the habit down.

Anyways, I study about 10-20 new kanji in the morning, and enter them into this site. I go to work and via my iphone I review any that are up for review, usually getting close to 100% on the reviews. The next day, before I study new ones, I review the kanji I added to this site the previous day.

This system worked pretty well up until about 350 or so. Now I find myself forgetting all the new kanji I learn before I review them. So the next day I test myself on the 10-20 I learned the day before, fail all, review the stories again, and then go on to adding 10-20 new ones. Essentially this means I'm now relearning 10-20 kanji in the morning, then learning 10-20 new ones.

The good news here is that upon learning them the 2nd time, they are sticking. The bad news is I don't think this is a very effective way of studying, and if this system is already showing bugs so early, I can just imagine it falling apart completely once i get further in. Today I'm going to try reviewing the new kanji I added today tonight before testing myself on them tomorrow and see if that helps.

Anyways, any tips on how exactly you study the material?

I do what you do. Learn them day 1, and review them day 2 before tackling another set.

I have an alloted amount each week that I learn (for me, it's 250). I spend Wed-Sunday memorizing, and visualizing, and then Monday-Tuesday reviewing EVERYTHING I've learned up to that point. So every kanji is reviewed once a week. Pretty soon the older ones just stick.

Just accept that you'll forget 90-95%, and don't fret it. Focus on what you have learned, and be excited about it.

I also found that the stories are more vivid and easier to remember if I don't write them down initially. It takes some stress off the learning experience which makes me more creative. So I'll spend time lying down with my book, and closing my eyes for each kanji as the story creates itself, spending about 2-5 minutes per kanji. Then I go at night and write the stories down from memory.

I don't know why they're more vivid that way. They just are. I theorize that if you barf the story out on paper the second it enters your head, then it doesn't get to simmer and take on a life of its own. Gotta let the story cook. Leave it inside for a bit. Then go back a few hours later and put it down.

Good luck. You can do it!

This isn't so much an RTK tip as a general study tip. It was passed on to me by my piano teacher and it's one that certainly isn't novel, but it's very powerful.

Keep a practice journal!

Write down what you did (or if you didn't do anything), approximately how long it took you and most importantly, how difficult it was and how you're feeling.

The benefits of this are huge. First of all, it helps to keep you honest. Most people don't realize how lazy or inconsistent they are. By taking two minutes every day and writing down your practice, you can keep yourself honest by looking back at the days that you didn't do anything. This is also a good prod to make yourself put one foot in front of the other, even if it's only reviewing five kanji, nobody wants to write down "Today I didn't do anything."

Writing down your feelings will help you realize how worthless they are, at least in relation to your studies. Some days you will feel that it's hopeless, and I keep forgetting xyz kanji, I should just give up, etc... While other days you will feel on top of the world. Documenting this, even in a few words, you can look back and realize that it doesn't matter how you feel at any given time as long as you keep going.

This will also help to motivate you when you are feeling hopeless. Everyone can look back and vaguely recall what it was like to struggle with something that is now easy, but reading, in your own words, how hard something was, and, how you're certain that you'll never get this, I'm just not XYZ enough to get it - this makes your progress very concrete. Now, you look back and laugh. Good, write this down too! After a few months of looking at this progression of how difficult things become elementary you can be certain that what you're struggling with right now will one day be similarly easy, no matter how impossible it seems at the moment.

Also:

Quote:I also found that the stories are more vivid and easier to remember if I don't write them down initially. It takes some stress off the learning experience which makes me more creative. So I'll spend time lying down with my book, and closing my eyes for each kanji as the story creates itself, spending about 2-5 minutes per kanji. Then I go at night and write the stories down from memory.

I think this is almost like a mini-SRS. You're learning the kanji for the first time, and then reviewing them later on in the day when you're likely to have forgotten them. As Thunk said, this lets things come to a boil, so to speak. Just because you're not consciously focusing on the kanji in the interim between 'learning' them and 'reviewing' them later in the day doesn't mean that your subconscious isn't digesting them.

The main reason why initial reviews go so well is because you usually know one of the main parts of the kanji in question, because the last 10-20 kanji have had one of the same parts, so it's easier to remember. Just remember that that's a crutch that's going to make a weak story appear to be stronger than it is.

If you're not remembering your stories, one of two things is happening. Either your stories aren't working (which happens to all of us sometimes), or your study method isn't working.

A few things to look at:

Are you ONLY reviewing expired kanji, or are you reviewing "green" kanji? If you're reviewing "green" or unexpired kanji, then STOP doing it. You're shooting yourself in the foot. Let the SRS do its work for you. It will tell you when you've forgotten, and when you need to go back and review a failed kanji. Only review expired kanji and failed kanji.

How do you handle failed kanji? (I'm assuming you're using the RTK website) Do you just mark them learned and dump them in pile 1, or do you attempt to see if you can remember them before marking them learned?

What worked best for me was to leave a failed kanji in the pile until I passed it. That meant I tested it once per DAY (yes, once every 24 hours) to see if I could remember it, just by looking at the keyword. If not, it stayed in there for another day.

To review failed kanji, I just have the site list all failed keywords, and I make sure i can't see the kanji. (Duh.) Yes, the numbers on the side are kind of a crutch, but ignore them if you can.

If something stayed in my fail pile too long (like 2-3 days), then I'd go back and take a long, hard look at it, story-wise. (Because if it stays in there that long... then.... it's problem #2-- your story sucks.)

Vivid stories worked best for me. The more vivid, the better. Personifying radicals also worked better for me than using the bland ones Heisig used. Thread? No way. Person? Not a chance. State of Mind? Nope. That sideways eye thing? Nah. I picked characters out of books and such that I liked. Again, the more vivid, the better. Stories had to follow a set style, where all the parts had to go in the order that they appear in the character, to make it less confusing in the long term.

Having weird people doing weirder stuff in your head makes the stories work better, IMO. Is it linguistically accurate? Who cares? Is it more fun? Definitely.

If Heisig's story doesn't do it for you, dump it. (They can be pretty dull, anyway.)

You don't have to do it every single primitive/radical, mind you. Some of them are fine the way they are, but some are just wretchedly useless to make stories with, and are as common as dirt. (Or are confused with similar sounding primitives.) Just make sure you double-check in the back to make sure there aren't any doubles.

rich_f Wrote:Personifying radicals also worked better for me than using the bland ones Heisig used. Thread? No way. Person? Not a chance. State of Mind? Nope.

I am so with you on that! Assigning characters or people I know to a radical, or giving personalities to so many inanimate objects (including body parts) has helped me tremendously. And state of mind? pulease. I got a staff with two dripping, bloody, human hearts dangling from the top.

I started RtK using just paper flashcards that I made myself, until I got to about frame 900 or so. That's when I discovered this site, and I was really happy - my paper flashcards were getting really cumbersome to deal with, and it's hard to organize them properly for review. But when I tried to go strictly with the schedule the website has you do, I stumbled a bit. The problem is - I really think I need a few reviews of new kanji on the first day I learn them, spaced out throughout the day, to really get them set in my memory.

So, the best study rhythm I've come up with is:
1. When I wake up, I learn 25 new kanji. Sometimes this might spill over to lunchtime, but I try to get them done earlier in the day - trying to learn when you're tired at night is no fun at all.
2. After learning all 25, I enter them into the website and review them. Then I remove them. I repeat this 2-3 times throughout the day. I space a few hours between each review. As you know, time and rest between study is really important for moving information into your long-term memory.
3. In between reviews of the new ones, I review my expired kanji.
4. Late afternoon - early evening, I add the 25 kanji again to the site, for the last time. Then I do my final review of the day.

Some days I go really fast, so I study a few more than 25 (one day, I even did 65). Then some days, I just really don't have it in me, or stuff just comes up. Some days, I just have to skip altogether. But I've been able to keep myself going - I'm at 1733 today, and I started on January 15th, which makes for an average of about 21.6 per day. Even this close though, I still want to quit all the time! I feel like I've been running a marathon, and I just want to curl up in a ball by the side of the road. The thing is though, I've already seen a huge jump in my Japanese studies. When I see a page of Japanese text, I don't see a scary minefield full of kanji - almost every character I see now is a familiar face, and with a little effort and practice, I'll make my way through. Learning new vocabulary is much easier too - kanji fluency allows you to link pronunciations and meanings between words that share the same kanji. It's like two worlds of information just start zipping themselves together. It's starting to feel as if Japanese has lost it's teeth - once you get over the kanji, Japanese becomes no more difficult to learn than any other language out there.

So, I'm not giving up - there is light at the end of the tunnel, and a lot of light at that.

Yo I wrote this in 100 kanji a day Topic, then realized it was to much for that thread, so I moved it here LOL...............

I'm in the last stretch of RTK (1710) and hell bent on finishing by Thursday. Here is my personal step by step method, which I think is pretty polished at this point and is simple and effective. Feel free to skip this post if you want, as it is rather detailed and self indulgent (LOL). Maybe this will be helpful to someone out there, or maybe someone can point out my weaknesses, and that will help someone too (it's too late for me LOL).

Note: this is after I have done my due cards here-I like to always have a clean slate.

1-Go through the book and create kanji storys. I usually do about 20-40 stories, or a lesson/half lesson. I write the kanji and the story in a notebook. When a new primitive arrives I scan down the page of the following kanji to see if there is a useful "theme" where I can make up my own that will better fit the keywords than J.W.'s. Sometimes this is easy, some times challenging, but if I see I can create something that works really well with multiple stories, then it pays off big time. Sometimes I go with the one in the book, sometimes not (awl...forget it - Darth Vader man!). Many people use this site to check for other peoples stories/replacement primitives first, and that can work great. I like to go solo to start, but will adopt a story from here sometimes if and when I fail in a review, or in step 5.

2-Input stories into review here. Put them on ice. This is just so I know they're in, and waiting for me to come beat 'em down!

3-Reread my stories, or, at this point, rapidly go over the stories. Some I know I need to repeat 2 or three times aloud. Some feel easy so I just imagine the gist of it, get an impression, and focus on the elements. I'm sure people who have gotten far can relate to the fact that you are so familiar with elements that sometimes they can stick without a perfect story. The key word will fit with old familiar elements well because both you have used those elements thousands of times, and the key word is a natural fit. Also sometimes I find that some of my easy to remember long term kanji are ones that had such impossible to connect elements in a story, but the very incompatibility/stupidity of it makes it stick strong.

4-Add new stories from the next section. Or don't, but do some other J studies. The key is to start my initial spaced repetition, and it's nice to overlap the process of steps/sections.

5-Cover the stories/kanji and go down the notebook with each key word, calling out the elements rapid fire. If I struggle/miss one, wich is rare, it is a good sign there is a problem. I go over/read it, repeat it maybe revise it or meditate on it a bit. Sometimes I realize a better story or see that this key word is gonna be a bitch later on, and implement something to preemptively fix this, like a rhyme or mnemonic if I hadn't got it before . If I'm totally stumped, I come here.

6-Repeat step 6 but out of order, backwards, or starting at the top of the page (I usualy have 3 and1/2 to 5 pages per lesson/block). I do it this way so I'm not just getting the new primitive first, and in exact order, and crutching on that (fine for step 5, but I'm taking the training wheels off, and also trying to go faster).

7-Review here.

I space all the steps, sometimes adding new kanji between, or doing other J studies (or breaking to read the forum like now), living my life etc., sometimes over two or three days (and will do my reviews here as top priority). The steps all go pretty fast, and by spacing them I don't feel I'm "overtraining". Steps 5 and 6 go quick, and are basically a mini review/practice test to iron out any weak spots and ingrain things more. I usually take a few hours (at least) between step 6 and 7. My first review will almost always be 100%, with the rare miss being due to lazyness/going too fast. I do have a tough spot with the second review with some of them (mostly due to trying to break the ice on the primitives), but failing there is not a problem, as it builds it right back in when I see the card, and you see the primitives that help you pass the rest of the review. There's always that "Oh duh I knew that one" moment, and soon these sophomore failed kanji are full on integrated. I usually clear my failed cards the next day, and also do a mini quiz there too, by covering the screen and, looking just at the keyword and calling out the elements.

This is where I've developed my method to, and has been refined over the course. I did not delve super heavily into the forum for advise in the beginning, so much of the above is what I discovered by getting familiar with RTK, and trying things that didn't work as well.

If there is one flaw I may have it is not being the master crafter of every story/key word. Some of the key words are just a plain pain in the ass! My overall long term pass % is somewhere in the mid-high 70's....and I wish it were better (but I am gaining ground). I'd guess that maybe 90% of my mid-long term fails are due to one part of the story/element/order/placement being off, or missing. And of course the "sophomore slump" hurts the % a bit, so I imagine after I stop adding new ones that this will improve too. To put things further in perspective, I am at 1710, with 12,417 reviews under my belt, 1004 in the 4th box, 252 in both the second and third box (odd), and 182 in box one. I think these are decent stats, but I'm sure many people out there are more efficient than I am. I know I have a number of chronic problem kanji that I need to deal with (usually evil key words), but for some reason just avoid revising (I will address these more deeply when all stories are in). My stroke order/beauty factor is also not so great (I most of the time write them during reviews, but fast and sloppy), but I know I can correct that as reviews ease up, over the long haul (I save my pretty kanji for anki).

Obviously stories play their part, but I find only with some kanji do they play a key, reoccurring role. With most others they "melt" almost instantly, and the elements remain. And the best ones I just draw......

dbooster Wrote:One motivator is that I've been in Japan 3 years and still can barely speak Japanese. ugh. Embarrassment is a good motivator!!

If you haven't already, limit your exposure to foreigners to one day a week unless you have to interact with them at work, then limit your time outside of work to zero foreigners if physically possible.

It can't be stressed enough, I think, to find something enjoyable in Japanese. If you're only doing Japanese to learn Japanese, it becomes rather dull. Find movies, or dramas, or manga, or anything that gets you interested. It can be rough some days, but try and do something every day. For me, I really enjoy just hanging out with people, so I try to put myself in those situations and learn what I can.

One of my issues is that I'm too easily demotivated by some people I've met or read abou

It can't be stressed enough, I think, to find something enjoyable in Japanese. If you're only doing Japanese to learn Japanese, it becomes rather dull. Find movies, or dramas, or manga, or anything that gets you interested. It can be rough some days, but try and do something every day. For me, I really enjoy just hanging out with people, so I try to put myself in those situations and learn what I can.

One of my issues is that I'm too easily demotivated by some people I've met or read about. I read about Khatz, or people on this site, and it can be really demotivating when someone says how awesome they are in such a short time period. It's frustrating, because I wish I could do it that fast. But I'm not them. Once I realized I don't really care how fast I learn it, but focus more on just enjoying the process, it came easier. I don't care that people that have studied less than me can read newspapers or listen to the news- those things will come for me eventually. Just go at your own pace- you don't need to do 100 kanji a day, read the newspaper in a year or be functionally fluent in 18 months- you'll get there eventually if you just keep at it.

I've never tackled something as difficult as Japanese, and I have an engineering degree and an MBA. Those were a cake-walk compared to this, but the end results are a lot sweeter. I'm able to hang out with people who don't speak English and have reasonable conversations- it's an awesome feeling, and that's more payback than my degrees have given me. As Khatz has said- imagine yourself when you're fluent- the things you'll be doing. Visualize it, and you can make it happen. Set small goals, and do something every day.

@captal
"Imagine yourself when you're fluent- the things you'll be doing. Visualize it, and you can make it happen. Set small goals, and do something every day."

There you go m8! that's all you need.

"But I'm not them ...I don't care that people that have studied less ...those things will come for me eventually."

That thinking is so mature, actually your "demotivation" is motivating me even more ^^

captal Wrote:One of my issues is that I'm too easily demotivated by some people I've met or read about. I read about Khatz, or people on this site, and it can be really demotivating when someone says how awesome they are in such a short time period. It's frustrating, because I wish I could do it that fast.

This is the internet: people can say what they want. I could claim to have finished RTK in ten days and no one would be in a position to challenge me. That's why I try to ignore online language-learning communities. I find they do more harm than good to my state of mind.

As for my study method, it's pretty straightforward (if a little unconventional):

1. Do a minimum of 25 Kanji.
2. Take a short ten minute break.
3. Immediately review the Kanji.
4. Look for good stories for failed Kanji.
5. Clear failed cards.

Then, about twelve hours later (I wish it was this precise!), I'll put the Kanji I learned earlier into Anki and go through them until I get each one correct at least once. Then I'll review them when they're due again in both RevTK and Anki. I realise this is cheating to an extent, effectively doubling the rate at which I see each cards, but it keeps my mind at ease.