There's quite some time I've started with the method and my pace is really slow (I'm still in lesson 12).

After reading Heisig's words and thinking a bit, I realize I'm not following those steps to learn each kanji.

In fact, I don't have a strong visual memory, and relying on the association with words, or even straight to the ideas, works pretty well for me.

I have questioned myself "What's the point on using RtK if I don't do it right?". But then again I found out the order the kanji are presented really matters for me. And besides, I even use some of the stories (although I do not create an image for most of them).

So, I would like to know if there's anyone around doing something similar, if this is a mistake and even if there's some other tool that fits me better.

Thanks in advance.

We can't really tell you if it's a mistake or not. You claim your visual memory is weak, we can't really disprove that. Personally, I wouldn't have stood a chance to remember all those 2045 kanji if I hadn't relied on visual memory. Remembering a connection of words might be easy for a day or two, but two months later, I would never remember it. A vivid image however sticks in your brain. See the keyword and the image is there, the location in your brain is clear as day.

My point is, you have to do what you feel is right. If you feel visual memory isn't working for you, don't use it. Use something else and see how that works. It's never too late to change your tactic if you change your mind. It's way better to use a technique you chose yourself than to use a technique we recommend.

I do it a similar way. Rather than 'images,' a lot of my stories are either 'definitions' or literal 'stories,' with no real image attached. As I go along, however, sometimes an image will form...but it doesn't come up in the original learning process.

Also, a lot of my stories (the majority of...) are stories from, or slightly tweaked from, the site itself.

Good examples:
唯　- Solely. I use my *mouth* for the *sole* purpose of eating *Turkey.*
There's no image there, it's a definition.

想 - Concept. The *concept* of love is the *interaction* of *hearts.*
How can you even get an 'image' for this?

佳 - Excellent. Bill and Ted saw a *square jewel* and they were like "Excellent!" but then they noticed it was on *Mr. T*'s necklace, and they were like "Oh No!"
This started off as just a story, but has slowly developed an image of Mr T. just standing there confused while Bill and Ted make fools of themselves right in front of him.

I personally don't think you're doing anything wrong. It's not how Heisig himself suggests it, but I believe that the fact that I have about 90-130 reviews a day and consistent 90%+ retention rate shows that its working.

I'm not sure what counts as visual memory, but I do/did something like Asriel's first two examples. As long as what you're doing actually works for you, I wouldn't worry.

Thanks a lot everybody. Now I feel more confident to keep on with the method.

Asriel Wrote:I do it a similar way. Rather than 'images,' a lot of my stories are either 'definitions' or literal 'stories,' with no real image attached. As I go along, however, sometimes an image will form...but it doesn't come up in the original learning process.

Same for me, Asriel.

Come to think of it, even Heisig creates some verbal mnemonics like "ten rice-fields glued together", "ivy-clad cliffs" and "heading-craft". It's really tough to get an image for every single kanji.

Understanding your own memory strengths is extremely helpful in adjusting the method to suit you.

I have a very strong visual memory, so visual images are the key for me, but some people are much better at remembering narratives (story line). Lots of little diagnostics can help you understand what form works best for you. Example, for directions do you prefer (1) a map (2) step-by-step directions... turn right, then continue until... turn left (3) on-board navigator (human or computer) who tells you what to do as you proceed. What do you use for reminders to self? (1) Leave audio message on your phone (2) Put a sticky note where you will see it (3) Write on your hand.... etc. etc. When you meet someone new, what sticks with you immediately? (1) face (2) name. How do you remember phone numbers? (1) mathematical relations (2) physical pattern on your keypad (3) melody ... etc.

As you think of what works best for you for memory in everyday life, that will point you to the best way to create stories/images/recall devices for kanji.

Harrow Wrote:Example, for directions do you prefer (1) a map (2) step-by-step directions... turn right, then continue until... turn left (3) on-board navigator (human or computer) who tells you what to do as you proceed.

A map only if I can previously study it. Otherwise, can be (2). Option (3) is way off my reality...

Harrow Wrote:What do you use for reminders to self? (1) Leave audio message on your phone (2) Put a sticky note where you will see it (3) Write on your hand.... etc. etc.

(3) is most common, although I just scribble. I do have a pretty good memory and I rarely forget WHAT I have to remember. The point is I forget to remember.

Harrow Wrote:When you meet someone new, what sticks with you immediately? (1) face (2) name.

None of them... I'm really shy, so when I meet someone for the first time, I don't pay much attention to the face. The name is not relevant for me, either. On the other hand, behavior and psychological traits stick easily.

Harrow Wrote:How do you remember phone numbers? (1) mathematical relations (2) physical pattern on your keypad (3) melody ... etc.

(1) and (3). I've never tried (2), probably it wouldn't work.

So, I guess my visual memory really sucks, at least compared to other forms of remembering stuff.

Harrow Wrote:Understanding your own memory strengths is extremely helpful in adjusting the method to suit you.

I have a very strong visual memory, so visual images are the key for me, but some people are much better at remembering narratives (story line).

Yeah, I think in some ways Heisig (in the introduction and his directions) assumes that everybody's memory works the way his does -- he obviously tends strongly to the visual-imagery end of things. Personally I don't think I used any visual images in going through RTK -- my brain just doesn't do visual memory. But my retention rates were reasonable and the site tells me there are actually over 950 kanji I've never failed once. So word associations and word-pictures can work as well for some people as images do for others.

Like Asriel says, if your pass rate is good and you're not forgetting the earlier kanji then you should be OK...

Your answers were:

(2) step-by-step directions... turn right, then continue until... turn left
(3) Write on your hand
behavior and psychological traits stick easily.
(1) mathematical relations & (3) melody

So let go of the "I suck at visual" and look at what does stick for you -- sequential actions that unfold in time and traits/relations. These are STORY & MEANING elements.

So my guess is that (using a few of my own stories as examples) good ones for you would be:

167 災 disaster
First a flood, then a fire. The other way round wouldn't be such a disaster since the flood would put out the fire. The water marks point toward the left, the "sinister" direction.
&
295 額 forehead
When the tall foreign guest forgets to bow his head respectfully, he smacks his forehead on a door frame. That will teach him to remember this kanji!

Although for me I'm visualizing the events, seems like they would work for you too because they make a sequential story.

In contrast, something that works for me because of instant visual recall (I'm a Naruto fan) would probably be pretty useless to you:

1712 影 shadow
Odo would feel right at home in Konoha, where you see this kanji for shadow (かげ) inside the "capital building" of Konoha, where the office of the HoKage is located.

My book is the older edition... I skipped ahead and read the note in front of chapter 11 yesterday, and that worked alright, I *think*. Today however, lesson 8 btw, I missed about half of the kanji... I paused and tried making a mental image for each of them so idk...

Also, some of them (not a lot) I missed because I knew the elements, but had no idea where they went, any tips on how to fix that?

Other 'what works for me' questions: do you remember rhymes, tv ad jingles, phrases from books?

Primitive ordering: several approaches:

(1) different keywords for the same thing in different places. This is most critical for distinguishing 'pinnacle' from 'city walls', which would otherwise get hopelessly confusing. It's also occasionally used elsewhere, especially where the form is slightly different (eg 'hand' vs 'fingers'). Stories on this site don't always maintain the minor distinctions like that one.

(2) try to make the elements appear in the story in the order they are written in the kanji, or include something in the story that reminds you of the positioning.

(3) come up with an additional mnemonic for the ordering; for instance for 量 QUANTITY I use Heisig's "quantity of time and a quantity of distance" story, but I remember that the "time" part comes first by remembering that the time and space parts are in the same order they are in in the expansion of the acronym TARDIS. (sorry, very geeky story :-))

(4) remember general rules for where primitives go; for instance 頁 never appears on the left side of a kanji. If you think you have noticed a general rule and want to check it then a multi-radical kanji search can be handy to check that there aren't any exceptions you didn't know about.

At least for me I found that for the majority of the kanji I got the placement order correct without having to do anything particular about it; my approach was to only bother with things like the above in the cases where on review I got the order wrong (especially if I found I was persistently making the mistake).

Harrow Wrote:So my guess is that (using a few of my own stories as examples) good ones for you would be:

167 災 disaster
First a flood, then a fire. The other way round wouldn't be such a disaster since the flood would put out the fire. The water marks point toward the left, the "sinister" direction.
&
295 額 forehead
When the tall foreign guest forgets to bow his head respectfully, he smacks his forehead on a door frame. That will teach him to remember this kanji!

Although for me I'm visualizing the events, seems like they would work for you too because they make a sequential story.

You got it right.

Harrow Wrote:In contrast, something that works for me because of instant visual recall (I'm a Naruto fan) would probably be pretty useless to you:

1712 影 shadow
Odo would feel right at home in Konoha, where you see this kanji for shadow (かげ) inside the "capital building" of Konoha, where the office of the HoKage is located.

Actually I make this kind of association, but I cannot depend on it only. I'm a Naruto fan too, so when I saw 向 for the first time in "Hyuga" name, it stuck for good, and reinforced the yonder idea (as the clan is famous for their members' remarkable eyesight).

pm215 Wrote:(3) come up with an additional mnemonic for the ordering; for instance for 量 QUANTITY I use Heisig's "quantity of time and a quantity of distance" story, but I remember that the "time" part comes first by remembering that the time and space parts are in the same order they are in in the expansion of the acronym TARDIS. (sorry, very geeky story :-))

I had some trouble with the order of 貢 (tribute). Then, I came up with: "tribute is paid by the lower classes to the ones who own the power and created this craft (money goes upwards)". Not brilliant, but worked well.

pm215 Wrote:(4) remember general rules for where primitives go; for instance 頁 never appears on the left side of a kanji. If you think you have noticed a general rule and want to check it then a multi-radical kanji search can be handy to check that there aren't any exceptions you didn't know about.

I do it too. Thanks for the tip.

pm215 Wrote:Primitive ordering: several approaches:

(4) remember general rules for where primitives go; for instance 頁 never appears on the left side of a kanji. If you think you have noticed a general rule and want to check it then a multi-radical kanji search can be handy to check that there aren't any exceptions you didn't know about.

BTW I went and checked out that site and it seems not to distinguish properly between walking legs and taskmaster, beware! They are both available as primitives, but when you click on one some kanji that belong to the other show up. Could be a problem for those already having trouble with this distinction....

seminotti Wrote:Actually I make this kind of association, but I cannot depend on it only. I'm a Naruto fan too, so when I saw 向 for the first time in "Hyuga" name, it stuck for good, and reinforced the yonder idea (as the clan is famous for their members' remarkable eyesight).

Thanks! I've had trouble with that one in reviews, I'll go back and adopt your story
...Hmm looks like you didn't share your story, so I typed up this idea and gave you credit.
http://kanji.koohii.com/study/index.php?search=yonder

Harrow Wrote:

seminotti Wrote:Actually I make this kind of association, but I cannot depend on it only. I'm a Naruto fan too, so when I saw 向 for the first time in "Hyuga" name, it stuck for good, and reinforced the yonder idea (as the clan is famous for their members' remarkable eyesight).

Thanks! I've had trouble with that one in reviews, I'll go back and adopt your story
...Hmm looks like you didn't share your story, so I typed up this idea and gave you credit.
http://kanji.koohii.com/study/index.php?search=yonder

Like I told you, it was not supposed to be a story, just something else to reinforce mine. And as I'm still in part 1, relying on Heisig's, I don't use this tool yet.

But, anyway, good to know it was helpful.