I'm going through RtK and I've found different stroke orders for the two kanjis. So I'm wondering if anyone knows which one is the right one. And if the stroke order matters in this case (if both are correct)?

凸:

or


凹:

or

Well going from the Midori iPhone application where the kanji lookup is extremely dependent upon stroke order, it only accepts the image order (one's that are in RTK) and not the gif order.

I think the animated ones are the Chinese stroke order, and the still ones are the Japanese stroke order.

[Katsuo]

Most Japanese sources, including my KanKen prep books, have the order shown in your png files.

Here are some animations: 1. 凸 2. 凹
Those are from the Gahoh site.

So basically if you write the chinese stroke order on KanKen test it's not correct?

I'll probably not be doing KanKen test, but do I need to know stroke order somewhere else also. JLPT doesn't have this yet?

Thanks for the Gahoh link.

[Katsuo]

dacker Wrote:So basically if you write the chinese stroke order on KanKen test it's not correct?

As it's usually a pencil & paper test of course they can't be sure the order you wrote the strokes in. There are questions about stroke order but only at lower levels of the Kanken, i.e. up to level 5 (that is the 1,006 kanji taught at elementary school). 凸 & 凹 don't appear until level J2, by the way.

Quote:I'll probably not be doing KanKen test, but do I need to know stroke order somewhere else also. JLPT doesn't have this yet?

The JLPT is all multiple choice questions – you don't need to know how to write the characters.

Thanks for the explanation.

Here's the order from the Ministry of Education in Taiwan:
凸： and 凹：

In China (PRC) it seems to be left-to-right as in here.

I take it this is the Japanese stroke order? Really weird!

Here's another one that I don't know where it comes from:

Just try to remember that both have 5 strokes. That might help.

I never really understood the stress they place on stroke order. I generally try to follow it, but there are a few I'm sure I do "wrong". Unless you're planning to do some of the calligraphy brushwork, I just don't see the need to worry about it. As long as they don't see me writing it, they're most likely not going to know which line I wrote first.

LucidFaia Wrote:Just try to remember that both have 5 strokes. That might help.

How does that help? All variants I listed (except the last one) are 5 strokes!

six8ten Wrote:I never really understood the stress they place on stroke order. I generally try to follow it, but there are a few I'm sure I do "wrong". Unless you're planning to do some of the calligraphy brushwork, I just don't see the need to worry about it. As long as they don't see me writing it, they're most likely not going to know which line I wrote first.

Yeah, it really only matters if you write kinda sloppily, and if you get it somewhat right that should be enough. Of course it can be useful for dictionaries or IME.

About calligraphy... Actually the way it's written in calligraphy can be different from how you'd write it normally, depending on the style.

The .png file is what I've learn and saw on wwwjdic. I had no idea the Chinese stroke order what different. I am not surprised though as I know from Chinese student (when I was in Japan) that some character like 門 also are written in a different order.

I actually remember that my teacher didn't know what the correct stroke order for 凸 and 凹. Honestly I think it's important to get the basic of kanji right (and also Kana of course... I've seen some people writing some hiragana in peculiar ways to say the least). Beyond that it doesn't really matter too much IMO.

It's like the first stroke in 比. Apparently it's left to right and the third is right to left (and I am not even sure if that's really considered the official stroke order) but it certainly not going to matter much when you write it.

For character like 右 and 左 I guess it is better to get used to the correct stroke order because it actually quite logical... after a vertical stroke, an horizontal one and Vice versa. But really if you character look okay it's definitely not a big issue at all.

[Katsuo]

the_marshal Wrote:I actually remember that my teacher didn't know what the correct stroke order for 凸 and 凹. Honestly I think it's important to get the basic of kanji right (and also Kana of course... I've seen some people writing some hiragana in peculiar ways to say the least). Beyond that it doesn't really matter too much IMO.

Agreed. I don't think it's vital to know the correct stroke order for every character. What is important is to know the general principles.

At normal writing speeds strokes often get angled somewhat towards the following stroke, and some get joined together. If people use the same stroke order then these distortions will tend to be similar, which makes reading other's handwriting easier.

As a simple illustration, look at the way 品 is written here (the handwritten version is on the right). Note how each 口 is altered so that it looks a bit like a capital "R". This is common in everyday handwriting, and if you are following the standard stroke order your own 口's will change in a similar way.

It's rare to see handwritten characters in books, magazines or on the Internet, but living in Japan I often see them in local shops, restaurants, etc. Being able to read them (which I couldn't at all at first) can be very useful.

If anybody's interested I put different SOD diagrams for the two kanji's. I marked with red * those which are different from japanese order (Picture section).

http://www.japslo.si/slovar/kanji_detail...d5259013a4
http://www.japslo.si/slovar/kanji_detail...2d9d922871