These questions just popped up on Qさま, a quiz show, special on 漢検.

Trying reading these Kanji (I only got one right 1.).
Hint: They are all animals.

1. 山羊
2. 蝸牛
3. 子守熊
4. 耳菟
5. 信天翁
6. 海狸
7. 赤鶴
8. 螽斯
9. 章魚
10. 旗魚

The contestants got all of them right. Interestingly, パックン (an American celebrity who graduated from Harvard) was able to get number 3. right (but I heard he passed JLPT1 a long time ago).

Edit: パックン is really sharp - he's been answering the questions like a native. It's inspirational to see a foreigner get so far in Japanese...









Answers
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1. ヤギ goat
2. カタツムリ snail
3. コアラ koala bear
4. ミミズク horned owl
5. アホウドリ albatross
6. ビーバー beaver
7. フラミンゴ flamingo
8. キリギリス grasshopper
9. タコ octopus
10. カジキ swordfish

I wouldn't call that on'yomi and kun'yomi, it's obviously ateji. You can't learn to pronounce ateji, you just have to be exposed to it.

Tobberoth Wrote:I wouldn't call that on'yomi and kun'yomi, it's obviously ateji. You can't learn to pronounce ateji, you just have to be exposed to it.

That's right! For intermediate-advanced students, they know about ateji.

But for those starting out, don't get the impression that if you go through RTK1-3, then you are done. It will certainly help a lot, but there is still a lot of work to go...

kfmfe04 Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:I wouldn't call that on'yomi and kun'yomi, it's obviously ateji. You can't learn to pronounce ateji, you just have to be exposed to it.

That's right! For intermediate-advanced students, they know about ateji.

But for those starting out, don't get the impression that if you go through RTK1-3, then you are done. It will certainly help a lot, but there is still a lot of work to go...

Ah yes, I see what you mean. That's why I'm semi-critical of all techniques to learn readings except my own: Pure context. Learning an on'yomi for each kanji is useful but there's so many people who seem to think that if you memorize readings, you're fine afterwards. You're not. The only way to know 100% how to pronounce a word is to know the word and thus the readings.

Pakkun is a pretty bright guy. Beats most Japanese people I would guess.

Yeah, #1 isn't really in the same league of difficulty as the others, is it?
An ateji animal kanji that I really like, but is perhaps too well-known to be on that list (despite 山羊) is 熊猫. You can look it up if you don't know it (don't want to spoil the fun of guessing!) It's really fitting somehow.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:Pakkun is a pretty bright guy. Beats most Japanese people I would guess.

Yes, the guy acts silly but he's quite sharp.

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I posted on lang-8 asking about these 10 words (a FANTASTIC resource for asking natives questions about the Japanese language or culture - I have found nothing better).

I was wondering if these ten technically count as 当て字 - the answers were very interesting. 当て字 actually means something very specific. If you don't want to or can't read the rest, they basically say that the words are closer to 外来語 than to 当て字。

So I guess when we see Kanji, it could be:
音読み
訓読み
四字熟語 (usually 音読み)
当て字 (usually 音読み)
外来語 (usually カタカナ)

There must be a specific name for place and people-name Kanji readings, too. Or Kanji that are like onomonopoeia. There must be lots more categories I don't know about.

Here is a copy of the two replies, for those who are curious:

1. From Hisa-san:

「当て字」 は、漢字の意味を無視して 音だけで当てはめたものを言います。
例えばこんなものを指します。
めでたし -> 芽出度
よろしく -> 夜露死苦
アメリカ -> 亜米利加

「外来語」 は、主に 明治時代より後に日本に入ってきた外国語を指します。
この中では、コアラ、ビーバー、フラミンゴ くらいと思います。
タコは、普通は 蛸 と書きますが、知らない日本人は少ないので問題に
ならなかったのだと思います。

問題の漢字は音よりも漢字の意味を 当てていますから、「当て字」ではありません。
明治のころは、何でも漢字で表記しようとしたので 頑張って 意味を当てて言葉を
作ったのでしょう。

2. From t_issie-san:

広辞苑で「当て字」をひくと、「漢字のもつ本来の意味にかかわらず、音や訓を借りてあてはめる表記。」とあります。なのでHisaさんの説明で正解です。

実は私もこの番組を見ていたのですが、１と２しか分かりませんでした(T_T)。コアラ、ビーバー、フラミンゴに漢字があるなんて初めて知りましたよ・・・。

P.S. kfmfe04さんの日本語は完璧です（＾＾）

snallygaster Wrote:Yeah, #1 isn't really in the same league of difficulty as the others, is it?
An ateji animal kanji that I really like, but is perhaps too well-known to be on that list (despite 山羊) is 熊猫. You can look it up if you don't know it (don't want to spoil the fun of guessing!) It's really fitting somehow.

Chinese kids often joke around about whether the correct word is 熊猫 or 猫熊。

Logically, I would expect it to be 猫熊 but the correct word is 熊猫。Of course, in language, usage trumps logic. Then again, I don't know much about taxonomy, so who knows what the "proper" word should be? I guess that's what makes that word a topic of conversation amongst people who pay attention to these things...

Given the cases above, I would not be surprised at all if the Japanese write 熊猫 and read it as パンダ。

In Chinese, I always see 大熊貓, but sometimes 大貓熊. :"> Nyaw, pandas!

I bet you they learned those reading just because they were exposed to them. It's nothing special really.

If structured learning can quickly take care of 90 to 95 percent of issues, it's no problem to then go on and learn exceptions as they come up in context. Ateji and kunyomi by their nature have to be learned on a case by case basis. Front loading onyomi can help get you into the game faster with reading many, many things without going of the "I kind of know what it is, but no clue how to pronounce it" bit.

Anyone do Movie Method or Kanji town with opinions on the matter?

Quote:I was wondering if these ten technically count as 当て字 - the answers were very interesting. 当て字 actually means something very specific. If you don't want to or can't read the rest, they basically say that the words are closer to 外来語 than to 当て字。

I think these are generally called 熟字訓 (or 義訓) aren't they? 外来語 being a type of 熟字訓 with foreign phonetic readings. Like 今日, which ignore the readings entirely and use the kanji for its meaning only, while the a native Japanese or foreign (or whatever) word is used as the reading. I think 熟字訓 is considered a type of 当て字 in broad sense of the word, even though it's not an ateji like 寿司.

Incidentally I notice that the title of this thread seems to have revealed a bug in the forum software -- look at the way it's (mis)truncated in the 'recent topics' panel at the top of the page...

Pangolin Wrote:

Quote:I was wondering if these ten technically count as 当て字 - the answers were very interesting. 当て字 actually means something very specific. If you don't want to or can't read the rest, they basically say that the words are closer to 外来語 than to 当て字。

I think these are generally called 熟字訓 (or 義訓) aren't they? 外来語 being a type of 熟字訓 with foreign phonetic readings. Like 今日, which ignore the readings entirely and use the kanji for its meaning only, while the a native Japanese or foreign (or whatever) word is used as the reading. I think 熟字訓 is considered a type of 当て字 in broad sense of the word, even though it's not an ateji like 寿司.

In a strict sense, 当て字 is the complete opposite of 熟字訓 and the words at the top of this thread are examples of 熟字訓, not 当て字, but Japanese learners and natives alike (incorrectly) use the word 当て字 to refer to 熟字訓 all the time.
外来語 is the borrowing of foreign words for use in Japanese and really has almost nothing to do with either term. It is definitely not a subset of 熟字訓.

JimmySeal Wrote:In a strict sense, 当て字 is the complete opposite of 熟字訓 and the words at the top of this thread are examples of 熟字訓, not 当て字, but Japanese learners and natives alike (incorrectly) use the word 当て字 to refer to 熟字訓 all the time.
外来語 is the borrowing of foreign words for use in Japanese and really has almost nothing to do with either term. It is definitely not a subset of 熟字訓.

Thank you for explaining that, JimmySeal.

On the Wikipedia page:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/熟字訓

They give many examples of 熟字訓...

Readings of 九十九 「つくも」 大和 「やまと」 and 八百屋 「やおや」always made me pause and ponder. It is well explained here.

Apparently, according to:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/訓読み

外来語 may fall under 外来語による訓読み

So our list of Kanji-reading categorizations is now:

熟語 音読み 「電車=でんしゃ」 Chinese-like readings
四字熟語 (usually 音読み)　「自由自在=じゆうじざい」 proverbs, often from Chinese
当て字 (usually 音読み derived)　「亜米利加=アメリカ」 Kanji usually picked for sounds

熟語 訓読み 「山芋=やまいも」 Japanese and other foreign/non-Chinese readings
外来語 (usually カタカナ)　「赤鶴=フラミンゴ」 foreign sounds assigned to meaningful Kanji
熟字訓 (unusual 訓読み)　「大和=やまと」 cannot/hard to attribute kana to each Kanji

Any others we may have missed?

Anyone doing the 漢検? You must know of other categories/examples!

kfmfe04 Wrote:Readings of 九十九 「つくも」 大和 「やまと」 and 八百屋 「やおや」always made me pause and ponder. It is well explained here.

八百屋 is actually just regular 熟語 using uncommon readings:

八 - や[っつ] (訓読み)
百 - ほ→お (訓読み)
屋 - や (音読み)

JimmySeal Wrote:

kfmfe04 Wrote:Readings of 九十九 「つくも」 大和 「やまと」 and 八百屋 「やおや」always made me pause and ponder. It is well explained here.

八百屋 is actually just regular 熟語 using uncommon readings:

八 - や[っつ] (訓読み)
百 - ほ→お (訓読み)
屋 - や (音読み)

You're right - apparently, the 八百 「やお」 reading falls under 熟字訓, according to Wikipedia. I guess 八百屋 is one of those odd 熟語 that uses both 訓読み and 音読み。

I wonder if there is a name for that...
Japanese love to categorize everything - I wouldn't be surprised if someone coined a term.

Smackle, in the "Ateji 当て字 consisting of numbers" thread, noted that the correct term for numbers representing words is: 語呂合わせ 「ごろあわせ」

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Here is our updated list of reading categories:

熟語 音読み 「電車=でんしゃ」 Chinese-like readings
四字熟語 (usually 音読み)　「自由自在=じゆうじざい」 proverbs, often from Chinese
当て字 (usually 音読み derived)　「亜米利加=アメリカ」 Kanji usually picked for sounds

熟語 訓読み 「山芋=やまいも」 Japanese and other foreign/non-Chinese readings
外来語 (usually カタカナ)　「赤鶴=フラミンゴ」 foreign sounds assigned to meaningful Kanji
熟字訓 (unusual 訓読み)　「大和=やまと」 cannot/hard to attribute kana to each Kanji

語呂合わせ (訓読み・音読み・外来語 of numerals) 「093=おくさん=奥さん」
sounds from numerals used to represent word readings

kfmfe04 Wrote:Smackle, in the "Ateji 当て字 consisting of numbers" thread, noted that the correct term for numbers representing words is: 語呂合わせ 「ごろあわせ」

Yes, but as far as I know the term 語呂合わせ is not restricted to numbers. It refers to any pun or word play.

nac_est Wrote:

kfmfe04 Wrote:Smackle, in the "Ateji 当て字 consisting of numbers" thread, noted that the correct term for numbers representing words is: 語呂合わせ 「ごろあわせ」

Yes, but as far as I know the term 語呂合わせ is not restricted to numbers. It refers to any pun or word play.

Thanks for your comment.

I stand corrected. According to Wiki, there are 専門用語 that fall under 語呂合わせ.

For example, to memorize hard-to-write Kanji:
貝 貝 女 木 →櫻（桜の正字）
2階（貝）の女が気（木）にかかる

It seems that the common thread for 語呂合わせ is the use of mnemonics/stores to abbreviate, often to aid in the memorization of dates, special terms, Kanji, lists of items, etc... (must sound familiar to RevTK users).

The use of 語呂合わせ for pun and wordplay appears to be more common for numerals.

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熟語 音読み 「電車=でんしゃ」 Chinese-like readings
四字熟語 (usually 音読み)　「自由自在=じゆうじざい」 proverbs, often from Chinese
当て字 (usually 音読み derived)　「亜米利加=アメリカ」 Kanji usually picked for sounds

熟語 訓読み 「山芋=やまいも」 Japanese and other foreign/non-Chinese readings
外来語 (usually カタカナ)　「赤鶴=フラミンゴ」 foreign sounds assigned to meaningful Kanji
熟字訓 (unusual 訓読み)　「大和=やまと」 cannot/hard to attribute kana to each Kanji

語呂合わせ (訓読み・音読み・外来語 of numerals & special terms) 「093=おくさん=奥さん」
sounds/mnemonics used to represent word readings - good for memorization