I am at around the 1400 mark, and began SRSing in Anki. I know I should just grit my teeth and finish RTK, but I was getting too burnt on RTK. But, yes, the kanji I know are much easier in the SRS. I always review here first, then split my time between the SRS, and adding RTK. I was going really fast with RTK, but at that speed reviews were getting a bit harsh and fail rates were higher than I like. I am enjoying doing both, and SRSing is motivating me to finish RTK.

As I'm still a newbie, I am using sentences that have audio to accompany them. I know a lot of people find "mining" a chore, but I feel like the time spent adding the sentence, is time spent learning it. I'll record a sentence from iknow, or a jpod lesson. I use the kanji reading for the question, and the Hiragana, audio clip, and definitions from WWWJDIC, as well as paste any grammar points I feel I need from the Jpod pdf (I have a basic subscription). If there is a kanji conjugation, or unfamiliar kanji, I look it up here and put that in there too.

I also put these sentence audio clips into my ipod, and whenever I walk the dog or do chores I listen and speak/repeat them. I also try to visualize the reading when I'm doing this. Doing this, then going back to my SRS is a big plus. A bit labor intensive, you might say? Maybe so, but I feel that each element reinforces the others. My SRS helps my RTK, RTK helps my SRS, and the audio rounds things off. I am such a newb, but I am finding that I can hear the stuff I know, speak it read it.....

I also do tons of passive and active listening, AJATT style. As I get closer to an "intermediate" level I'm sure I will get less strict about the "audio always" policy, and start mining from manga, literature etc, but for now, hearing the word repeatedly outside the SRS is a huge help.

One thing I haven't really looked into is learning the on'yomi, kun'yomi. I'm just going sentence by sentence, word by word. Any advice about this anyone?

Having known a bit of kanji before I started, I'll tell you one thing about on'yomi and kun'yomi:

Once you see them in enough words, you will definitely just 'get the hang' of it. This is the reason that I want to do sentences -- so I get used to the words that kanji are used in, and then when you see certain kanji in different context, you can know how they are said/used.

A good example: 行
行く、旅行、４行
いく、りょこう、４ぎょう

You just know according to context which one to use...It comes with time, as does the 'natural' stroke order, which I assume you can attest to, being around the 1400 level.

Update on me though: It being spring break, I have kicked kanji study into hyperspeed mode. I am now up to the 800-mark, and if I do everything I'm 'supposed to' today, then I should be at 828.
Retention rates are still really good too!

Asriel Wrote:You just know according to context which one to use...It comes with time, as does the 'natural' stroke order, which I assume you can attest to, being around the 1400 level

This is usually true, but one should not become over-confident.
There are still lots and lots of exceptions out there, like 興行, 行事.

Matthew Wrote:Has anyone actually made any real progress with this method? It seems extremely time-consuming for the amount of actual benefit.

For example, there are ~180 grammatical points for JLPT L2, and another 100 or so for L1. Many of these have multiple forms, so even with only one sentence for each form, you're talking ~500 sentences just for grammar. In the time it takes to create that many flashcards, it seems like I could be getting a lot else done.

500 flashcards is nothing. And that's all the grammar for JLPT1? JLPT1 takes most people 3-4 years to get good enough for, 500 flashcards can be added in 2 weeks. And for every flashcard, you probably learn a few words as well.

Sure you could get a lot else done... like.. not learning Japanese. Good luck finding any more effective way to improve comprehension.

iSoron Wrote:There are still lots and lots of exceptions out there, like 興行, 行事.

I'm not disagreeing that there aren't exceptions,
but the examples you gave...it's ぎょう in both cases...so I'm not really sure what you mean by that

Asriel Wrote:I'm not disagreeing that there aren't exceptions, but the examples you gave...it's ぎょう in both cases...so I'm not really sure what you mean by that

I'm just pointing out that choosing the right reading is not as simple as you implied.
行 is usually read as こう in compounds.

oh yeah, I know that.
There's definitely lots of exceptions, no doubt.
don't forget 行う

So does anyone recommend straight up studying the yomi, or do you think best to get the feel through individual words. I think I personally do better with getting the feel, and picking out patterns over time (grammar lessons by themselves can be a bit difficult for me), but I'm still experimenting with learning methods (and will continue to do so).

One more question about SRSing...
I see people grabbing pre-made flash cards to save time, or adding big amounts to their SRS. I'm curious how well this goes. It seems to me like I do best making my own, as that helps me learn it from the start, and I can get a feel for what I need to add when, and at a good pace. If you add a large quantity in a short amount of time, wouldn't that put too many sentences in the mix? Apologies if this is a subject already beaten to death LOL.

I started RTK doing 50+ a day. I pulled a 15 hr session and added something like 170 one day (just to see if I could do it). I was so excited to get it done, but then the reality of big reviews and less than optimal retention reared it's ugly head (maybe some of you can relate)! I realized that quantity was no substitute for quality, and that there was only so much I could soak up on a daily/weekly basis. My motivation was high, but wasn't enough to effectively maintain that kind of pace (this was around the 1000 mark). My pace is more even now and the aproach more grounded.

I know everyone is different, just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about this, especially pertaining to sentence mining. If you can tear through RTK or sentences super fast, you have my respect and admiration!

I went through the 130 kanji lesson in one day. When I went through the next day, I had only forgotten 2, and I was surprised.

But for sentences with vocab and grammar, I think that its definitely good to just have a few per day. Even if it's just 10 words per day, that's still 3,650 words a year. That's a whole lot, and your retention will be pretty high.

I make my own sentences as well. I do use sources for them sometimes like Kanzen Master books, dictionaries or even KO, but I always handpick my sentences and enter them by hand. It helps with retention and makes sure I only learn sentences I really feel I need to learn.

Asriel - Yes, the sentences will help get a feel for kanji. I really have no idea what's on and kun. At all. I couldn't tell you. I know that one is Chinese readings and one is Japanese readings, but I don't know which is which. But focusing on just the step one I mentioned (and some SRSing), I've come to get a real feel for when to use which reading. It happens faster with more commonly occuring kanji as would be expected. Perhaps it would happen more evenly if I focused more on SRSing and inputting sentences that included those less common kanji. At the beginning I felt like it was a big ole mess of readings. But now, I can be reading along and come to a jukugo that I don't understand but that I can correctly read. This really speeds up my looking up time. I'm so happy when I look one up and find that I've read it correctly. It's like a game. Right now, some kanji with 生 as the kanji or part of it and kanji with readings of しょう、せい、そう、ぞう are really bothering me right now. But I know that with a bit more time of reading, they will start to get cleared up. Consciously knowing which one is kun or on doesn't help you much with fluency. But I would eventually like to know about that for my academic satisfaction.

As far as people wondering if sentences help your spoken language skills, the answer is YES. Grammatical competence is grammatical competence. PERIOD. Sentences might not help your fluency, meaning your speed and flow, as much as your accuracy, but they are definitely helping your speaking. To improve speed and flow, you have to speak. But there's a danger of speaking too much too soon and having mistakes fossilize in your speaking habits. Putting off speaking retards your progress with fluency. I think it takes a balanced approach. But reading most definitely helps your speaking in that you are constantly improving your grammatical knowledge. Now if you don't ever do any listening then your listening comprehension will be low and any speaking skills you have will be of little use since you can't comprehend your 相手's responses to what you've said. Remember, balance. (But if you have to choose, choose reading. The benefits far outweigh the benefits of focusing on any other of the language skills.)

I especially like the feature in anki that lets you limit the amount of new card shown to x per day!
It regulates the flow of new material and keeps it constant. I can add huge junks of stuff but it doesn't translate to huge junks of reviews the next day!

I have a question for all of you. I just finished RtK and I'm working my way through Tae Kim's Grammar Guide to get all the basics.

My question is: How do you normally do grammar cards? Recognition only (Sentence to Meaning) or production as well (Meaning to Sentence)? Or something less straightforward like dictation? While dictation or "kana-reading to Kanji-sentence" (it's like dictation without audio, really) seems to be great for writing and for remembering vocabulary but it seems to distract you from focusing on the grammar points that are being introduced.

I hope some experienced people here can give me advice or tell me how they handled it in the beginning. When should I use what model? Or should I stick with one model for all cards?

I only go recognition with grammar just like everything else. I add about... three example sentences for each grammar point. I have a really high standard for what I consider a passed card, I have to understand it 100%, not just be able to read it and have a decent grasp of each card. Thus, I don't need anything else really. If I don't understand a grammarpoint, I won't pass the card.

For grammar (of which I have few) cards, I use a production model. I try to produce the sentence with the correct kanji, and then consider how well I understood the meaning. In the answer field, along with the correct sentence is a little blurb about the particular grammar point which I glance over every now and then. I rate myself on both on how well I understood the sentence and how well I wrote it out.

Now that Anki supports easy cloze deletion card creation, you can also do grammar bits using that.

For example, if you're testing your ability to figure out which particles to use in which places, just omit the particle using the new cloze deletion feature. That will give you some random testing.

Or if you want to remember how to conjugate verbs, you can do something like this:

Q: （　）　の中で動詞を「て刑」にして、＿＿＿の上に書きなさい。
授業は９時に＿＿＿、３時に終わります。　（始まります）
A:始まって

So the top line of the Q is just a canned, "take the verb in the ( ), and write the te-form of it above the ___ " (Got it out of a drill book.) This gives you practice conjugating te-form, and reminds you that te-form verbs also function to join clauses together.

When it comes to grammar, I prefer to add as many good short examples as I can find. The trickier the point, the more examples I add. I do the same for anything I want to embed in my brain. Rarely do I just use one example sentence to learn a vocab word or a grammar point.

I haven't had a chance to play with cloze deletion in Anki yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

I also have a question about sentences that is similar to Hinode's. I'm also going through Tae Kim (and some other stuff), and I was wondering if you're supposed to analyze every kanji in every word for reading sentences? or...I'm just not sure because I still have a bit of trouble recalling keywords when looking at kanji. I'm thinking it would be kind of worthless associating some of the random keyword meanings with actual Japanese words anyways. But then I'm still left wondering how you actually learn the words; do you just sort of mentally associate a few kanji (and their radicals?) with a japanese word?

igordesu Wrote:I also have a question about sentences that is similar to Hinode's. I'm also going through Tae Kim (and some other stuff), and I was wondering if you're supposed to analyze every kanji in every word for reading sentences? or...I'm just not sure because I still have a bit of trouble recalling keywords when looking at kanji. I'm thinking it would be kind of worthless associating some of the random keyword meanings with actual Japanese words anyways. But then I'm still left wondering how you actually learn the words; do you just sort of mentally associate a few kanji (and their radicals?) with a japanese word?

More or less. It's just something you get used to as you learn a lot of compounds, eventually you don't notice at all what kanji are used in a compound, you just "read" it. Like 勉強, you don't actually analyze the kanji one-by-one, you just read the word.

Yeah, what Tobberoth said. I rarely remember keywords when actively reading Japanese. I'm too busy reading Japanese to try to remember the English keywords.

情報 is じょうほう, 価格 is かかく, etc. For a while you might translate them into your native language (information, price), but if you're doing it right, eventually you'll stop even doing that. That's why eventually going monolingual really helps.

(The sole exception for some reason is 雑, which, when I'm writing it out from kana, I'll mumble "Baseball, trees, and turkeys," instead of ざつ, which is a horrible habit I really need to break.)

thank you for your replies. That actually helps a lot. 勉強 is actually a really good example since that was one that I was concerned about. Like, I totally know the shape of the kanji and instantly recognize the word and pronunciation, but I was just concerned that I only had a vague understanding of the meanings of each kanji. But, thank you very much--that clears up a lot.

igordesu Wrote:thank you for your replies. That actually helps a lot. 勉強 is actually a really good example since that was one that I was concerned about. Like, I totally know the shape of the kanji and instantly recognize the word and pronunciation, but I was just concerned that I only had a vague understanding of the meanings of each kanji. But, thank you very much--that clears up a lot.

Yeah, you definitely don't have to worry about that. I have a good grasp of 強 because of 強い but it really doesn't matter. When I see 勉 in the future I will think "Ah, that's ben from benkyou", I won't think "Oh, that's "exert" from RtK". In the end, that's the better way anyway since Japanese keywords mean a lot more than the English ones.

Thank you very much. You have dispelled all my fears

I recently switched from "recognition" to "production" for all vocabulary items and am slowly converting my deck. It has slowed me down a lot in terms of numbers of cards I can add and go through every day. But I got fed up being stuck in a middle of a conversation trying to remember a word I know I had reviewed and passively recognised 3-7 times! I would then try several 'sounds like' versions until the person I'm talking finally could guess the word from the context and my mumblings.

Still very new to this review method but so far it has worked wonders on the items I've gone through. I know many people on the forum have been practising it for a long time with success.

Hinode - Do what model works for you or follow others' suggestions here. I'd like to comment one part of your post though. The whole point of sentences is to not consciously study grammar (or at least not to worry about memorizing rules; it's not so bad to read over grammar explanations if the goal is to get meaning from something you're trying to read). So, if doing these sentences on flashcards feels like you aren't focusing on grammar, yet you are still reading and understanding sentences, then you are doing it right. Focusing on consciously understanding grammar rules and how verbs and adjectives change forms and in what grammatical situations they are used doesn't help a whole ton. What does help is reading TONS of sentences--sentences in context, sentences on advertisements, sentences in books, sentences in grammar guides, sentences in ANKI, etc., etc. If what you're doing is keeping you from thinking about the grammar but still allows you to understand the sentence, then I'd say you're doing it right.

mattyjaddy Wrote:Hinode - Do what model works for you or follow others' suggestions here. I'd like to comment one part of your post though. The whole point of sentences is to not consciously study grammar (or at least not to worry about memorizing rules; it's not so bad to read over grammar explanations if the goal is to get meaning from something you're trying to read). So, if doing these sentences on flashcards feels like you aren't focusing on grammar, yet you are still reading and understanding sentences, then you are doing it right. Focusing on consciously understanding grammar rules and how verbs and adjectives change forms and in what grammatical situations they are used doesn't help a whole ton. What does help is reading TONS of sentences--sentences in context, sentences on advertisements, sentences in books, sentences in grammar guides, sentences in ANKI, etc., etc. If what you're doing is keeping you from thinking about the grammar but still allows you to understand the sentence, then I'd say you're doing it right.

I could not agree more. It's called 'internalization', and it doesn't happen from reading about grammar. Japan is chocked full of wannabe English speakers who have read more about English grammar than most native English speakers. Yet they can't speak worth a rip from all that effort.

I would only add that not only reading the sentences, but listening to them (of course) and *repeating them* is where full internalization takes place. A person can read until the cows come home, and it really will not help output too much. Some? Sure. But learning a foreign language is not only an intellectual endeavor, it's an athletic one, too. The tongue is a muscle that needs to be trained to make those sounds, and it doesn't get trained by reading.