I would really have needed instructions like those the first time I was in a hurry to get "on the throne" and there were only Japanese style toilets available. I knew sitting on it wasn't the trick but the way you're supposed to be facing was the question.

Curiously, after three months, I actually found them more hygienic than the western ones!

alantin Wrote:Being polite where it really isn't expected, does stand out in a good way!

Except saying "thank you" in Japan can be considered rude/sarcastic in situations where you're expected to say すみません instead (ex: if someone holds the elevator for you). In fact, most situations in which you'd want to say thank you are better served by すみません.

Codexus Wrote:

EnjukuBlack Wrote:

kfmfe04 Wrote:2. When they sneeze, there is nothing to say

And why should there be?

This is one thing that always bugged the hell outta me back home. Can anyone provide me with an even remotely plausible reason why it's necessary to say something when someone sneezes? And why it's rude if you don't say anything? :mad:

I find that really annoying too. It's originally a superstition that people often mistake for politeness. It can make you seem quite uneducated if you do it in a formal situation so it's better to get rid of that bad habit.

-off topic-

I work in construction in the US, and we usually say "sancho! har har" whenever someone sneezes. It roughly means "your girl is cheating on you," in Spanish.

stehr Wrote:I work in construction in the US, and we usually say "sancho! har har" whenever someone sneezes. It roughly means "your girl is cheating on you," in Spanish.

Hey, break a leg! Wait, is that right?

In Thailand it is actually considered rude for a monk to thank you for offering him food. Because of the good karma one accumulates by offering a monk food, it is believed that the giver should be grateful for having the opportunity to make this gift.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

alantin Wrote:Being polite where it really isn't expected, does stand out in a good way!

Except saying "thank you" in Japan can be considered rude/sarcastic in situations where you're expected to say すみません instead (ex: if someone holds the elevator for you). In fact, most situations in which you'd want to say thank you are better served by すみません.

IMO it is good to think of [kana]sumimasen[/kana] meaning as much "thank you" as "excuse me".
Or, according to my sensei; "I never cease asking of you..."

The difference in nuance is something one learns from experience, I think, if ones own language doesn't contain a similar pair, but it certainly is worth pointing out!

watch about 3 drama episodes and you'll catch on :\

Codexus Wrote:

EnjukuBlack Wrote:

kfmfe04 Wrote:2. When they sneeze, there is nothing to say

And why should there be?

This is one thing that always bugged the hell outta me back home. Can anyone provide me with an even remotely plausible reason why it's necessary to say something when someone sneezes? And why it's rude if you don't say anything? :mad:

I find that really annoying too. It's originally a superstition that people often mistake for politeness. It can make you seem quite uneducated if you do it in a formal situation so it's better to get rid of that bad habit.

Not in America that I know of. It's rude not to say excuse me and bless you when you sneeze.

alantin Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:

alantin Wrote:Being polite where it really isn't expected, does stand out in a good way!

Except saying "thank you" in Japan can be considered rude/sarcastic in situations where you're expected to say すみません instead (ex: if someone holds the elevator for you). In fact, most situations in which you'd want to say thank you are better served by すみません.

IMO it is good to think of [kana]sumimasen[/kana] meaning as much "thank you" as "excuse me".

I think associating the two like that is a little bit much. You are not saying thank you with すみません. You are offering a small apology for whatever trouble/inconvenience you caused the other person by them helping you. For example, if they held the elevator door for you, it means that they had to wait for a few seconds, as well as push a button or whatever.

Just because it represents an aspect of culture which the west doesn't share doesn't mean the word should be localized to the nearest cultural equivalent. It would be like saying 切腹 means "slitting your wrists".

Ben_Nielson Wrote:

oggthegoblin Wrote:To stop your soul escaping through your nose of course.

Plausible enough.

I stand corrected.

Apologies out to all those now soul-less people I've let down in the past.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I think associating the two like that is a little bit much. You are not saying thank you with すみません. You are offering a small apology for whatever trouble/inconvenience you caused the other person by them helping you.

Yet, if you look it up in a dictionary, you'll see one translation being; "thank you".

Like I said, the difference in nuance is something one learns from experience but, say, for someone who hasn't gained that insight yet, just saying that [kana]sumimasen[/kana] is an apology and [kana]arigatou[/kana] means "thank you", isn't enough for reasons you your self brought up!

It is often the case that words in one language don't have exact equivalents in another and since the Japanese so often offer apologies where westerners would say "thank you", this kind of simplification doesn't accurately describe the meaning of the word.

Another example would be the お世話になります / お世話になりました.
You don't really say that out of remorse for the inconvenience you cause(d) the other person, but out of gratitude for what ever you received, although the cultural norms dictate that the use of an apology is the appropriate way to express your gratitude.
It is the same with your elevator example!

Though, I'm not really sure if the Japanese strictly see it as apologizing either, but I guess we would need a native to give their insight about this..

alantin Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I think associating the two like that is a little bit much. You are not saying thank you with すみません. You are offering a small apology for whatever trouble/inconvenience you caused the other person by them helping you.

Yet, if you look it up in a dictionary, you'll see one translation being; "thank you".

Like I said, the difference in nuance is something one learns from experience but, say, for someone who hasn't gained that insight yet, just saying that [kana]sumimasen[/kana] is an apology and [kana]arigatou[/kana] means "thank you", isn't enough for reasons you your self brought up!

It is often the case that words in one language don't have exact equivalents in another and since the Japanese so often offer apologies where westerners would say "thank you", this kind of simplification doesn't accurately describe the meaning of the word.

Another example would be the お世話になります / お世話になりました.
You don't really say that out of remorse for the inconvenience you cause(d) the other person, but out of gratitude for what ever you received, although the cultural norms dictate that the use of an apology is the appropriate way to express your gratitude.
It is the same with your elevator example!

Though, I'm not really sure if the Japanese strictly see it as apologizing either, but I guess we would need a native to give their insight about this..

I think what this all illustrates is the importance of learning a language in context, and not as one-to-one equivalences found in a dictionary

As for doing the Japanese thing and not say 'thank you', because of the Japanese perception of higher and lower ranks, do you really want to perpetuate that? I mean in the past most cultures had highly class based societies, it's hardly a good thing now though, is it? I don't think of konbini workers as below me, and I hope they don't see a 'gaijin' as below them. I don't think the stratification of society into master and serf helps anyone, no matter how beautiful their culture.

Korea is even worse with their Confucian holdovers. So many conventions and customs you should supposedly observe. Also one of the better things Britain did for India was outlaw the caste system, not that it had a huge effect, but I'm sure it was a good start towards a more equal society. Can you guys not see the connection in the sexism also extant in Japan? Men over women, country over people, it's not healthy at all and should be ignored, certainly not met without some incredulity.

I always said arigatou and sumimasen, a lot, if it ruins the naturalness of my language then so be it. I'm a foreigner in a new country, I have a lot to be thankful and sorry for.

In my opinion a cashier IS lower than me. They are servants paid to serve me. Hence the term "service industry". Even a homeless unemployed person who scrounges up the change to buy something is superior to the cashier.

It has nothing to do with a being a superior human being, it is about roles. If I worked at a store somewhere else and that same cashier came into buy something, the positions would be reversed.

phauna Wrote:Can you guys not see the connection in the sexism also extant in Japan? Men over women, country over people, it's not healthy at all and should be ignored, certainly not met without some incredulity.

This may be a Western-centric POV.

I think its important to remember that Japanese people play out superior and inferior roles regardless of whether or not they actually respect each other. One of my co-teachers has written me e-mails where he just makes so much fun of the vice-principle at my school. But in person, when he's around the vice-principle, he throws out those honorific and humble expressions. It seems a bit different than just talking about someone behind their back, because it always happens; no matter what you think of a person you treat them in the appropriate way.

Another time I told a teacher about the physicist Richard Feynman getting fed up with Japanese when he started to learn about how ridiculous the humbles and honorifics were. They were talking about gardens and Feynman couldn't help but think something like "My garden's just as good as anyone else's garden! I shouldn't have to treat myself and my garden like they're crap." My teacher responded that it just made things so much more organized to have all these distinctions, and that it was very useful indeed. You don't have to think as much when you know exactly how you're supposed to act.

Actually, I've never really been able to get into it myself. I do feel uncomfortable without at least saying thank you at convenience stores. I've even had it worse a few times. A couple of graduate students who were getting their degree to be English teachers taught alongside me from time to time. Even as a JET I'm considered a full-fledged teacher, so they sucked up to me just as much as they did to the other teachers. Man did it feel weird! They would follow us 'full fledged' teachers around and we would just talk as if they weren't there and pay them no mind. They were very polite and we were just supposed to treat them like they were nothing.

I cannot think that the cashier is lower than I am or that I am higher than he/she is. The only difference in role is that they are doing their job which happens to be meeting my needs as a customer. That does call for certain behaviour BUT I could never think that someone was LOWER or higher than I am! The whole idea is detestable and offensive to whole humanity!

Some people earn respect, others lose it, but people are equal!
Whatever any eastern philosophy says!

alantin Wrote:people are equal!

Evidence?

~J

woodwojr Wrote:

alantin Wrote:people are equal!

Evidence?

~J

You disagree?
Would you like to be a butcher in the Indian cast system?
Does a persons occupation determine his value?

alantin Wrote:I cannot think that the cashier is lower than I am or that I am higher than he/she is. The only difference in role is that they are doing their job which happens to be meeting my needs as a customer. That does call for certain behaviour BUT I could never think that someone was LOWER or higher than I am! The whole idea is detestable and offensive to whole humanity!

Some people earn respect, others lose it, but people are equal!
Whatever any eastern philosophy says!

No one ever said that the clerk was inferior to the customer. Jarvik even pointed out that the whole "above" "below" relationship has nothing to do with that person as a human being.

Quite simply, they are currently being paid (in part through the money I am spending there) to serve me. I should be under no obligation to smile or chit-chat or any of that.

Note that this doesn't mean I'm going to go out of my way to be rude or go around spitting on all the clerks at the convenience stores. But I am the one paying money for a service. It is up to them to be polite and smiley and say all their thank-you's and have-a-nice-day's.

alantin Wrote:You disagree?

Quite possibly. I certainly disagree that it's obvious enough to be accepted without support.

Quote:Would you like to be a butcher in the Indian cast system?

What I would enjoy has no effect on what is.

Quote:Does a persons occupation determine his value?

The US certainly thinks so. I'm not a sociologist, so I don't have a truly global perspective, but in all of the cultures I'm familiar with either your occupation determines your value or your value determines your occupation (or some combination).

~J

woodwojr Wrote:

alantin Wrote:people are equal!

Evidence?

~J

Genetics.

EnjukuBlack Wrote:No one ever said that the clerk was inferior to the customer. Jarvik even pointed out that the whole "above" "below" relationship has nothing to do with that person as a human being.

Quite simply, they are currently being paid (in part through the money I am spending there) to serve me. I should be under no obligation to smile or chit-chat or any of that.

Note that this doesn't mean I'm going to go out of my way to be rude or go around spitting on all the clerks at the convenience stores. But I am the one paying money for a service. It is up to them to be polite and smiley and say all their thank-you's and have-a-nice-day's.

I understand what you're saying but the idea of thinking weither I am or am not obligated to be polite to someone in a given profession just sounds really fishy to me and thinking that a person is inferior in terms of position isn't so far from thinking that the person is inferior as a person.
There is a difference! It's just too small to be comfortable.

Of course to a store clerk to say their "thank-you's", etc. It's part of their job!
There should be no obligation but shouldn't it be obvious that you need to be nice and polite to people? That's, at least, how I was raised up!


I bet, next someone is going to come asking for "evidence"..

plumage Wrote:

woodwojr Wrote:

alantin Wrote:people are equal!

Evidence?

~J

Genetics.

You must have heard that, because of genetics, a black man's mental abilities are always way lower than a white man's!

alantin Wrote:

plumage Wrote:

woodwojr Wrote:Evidence?

~J

Genetics.

You must have heard that, because of genetics, a black man's mental abilities are always way lower than a white man's!

That is, of course, nonsense. However, if one believes in evolution--which one should, as it's as close to factual as an idea can get--then one also believes in natural selection. Natural selection depends on the inequality of individuals as a mechanism for selection.

But! Just because it is semantically inappropriate to state that all humans are equal does not mean that it should follow that all human beings should not be treated equally.

As for the contextual hierarchy of individuals, I personally find it an unavoidable phenomenon, but I also find it laughably useless in most cases. I work at a grocery store. If people treat me as though I am below them, they can ***** off. I know it's my job to answer questions, stock shelves, etc. But if someone plans to lord over me because I am being paid, they can once again ***** off.

I don't care what the cultural context is. I am a free moral agent capable of making my own decisions as to what is proper and what is not. I trust my own convictions more than millenia old traditions.

plumage Wrote:

woodwojr Wrote:

alantin Wrote:people are equal!

Evidence?

Genetics.

Genetics and other physical factors are the worst direction you could try to take this; from that standpoint, a person functioning at a standard level is obviously superior to someone with heritable profound physical and mental disabilities, say.

~J