Is this sentence gramatically correct?
花田さんが、黒田さんに、サンドイッチを買って来てあげました。
Shouldn't it be
花田さんが、黒田さんに、サンドイッチを買って来てくれました。
I thought ageru was only to be used by I, me, us, we, and that kureru was for everybody else. Can you explain?
Thanks!

From my copy of Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar in the Related Expressions section for kureru (p.215):

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The eye sign "v" [it isn't really a v, but it looks like a v] indicates which viewpoint the sentence requires.

AはBにXをあげた。
A wa B ni X o ageta.
v (or neutral)
(A gave X to B.)

AはBにXをくれた。
A wa B ni X o kureta.
v
(A gave X to B.)

BはAにXをもらった。
B wa A ni X o moratta.
v
(B got X from A.)

If the first person or a person the speaker empathises with is involved in a giving-receiving situation, the NP [noun phrase] which refers to him must occur in the positions with "v". The reason for this is as follows: When the first person or someone the speaker empathises with is involved in a giving-recieving situation, the situation is normally described from his viewpoint, and if the NP which refers to him occurs in the positions without "v", a viewpoint conflict arises.
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I have no idea what the authors are going on about there... but I hope it helps.

rgravina Wrote:I have no idea what the authors are going on about there... but I hope it helps.

ha ha! My eyes have glazed over; I'm sooo bad at grammar. But thanks so much for your help. You've confirmed that ageru can be used for someone other than me. So, are both of my example sentences correct?

あげる = Focus on the person giving
くれる = Focus on the person being given to

See http://www.guidetojapanese.org/favor.html

So if you were taking about 花田さん being kind you would say that
he あげる'd a サンドイッチ to 黒田さん.

If however you were talking about where 黒田さん had got that サンドイッチ
from, you would say that he くれる'd it from 花田さん.

I think.

あげる and くれる both mean give, but the difference is あげる is giving done by you or a member of your in-group to someone outside. It historically/literally means to raise up with the implication of making a humble offering; くれる is used where the giver is from outside your in-group and is giving to you or a member of your group.

So grammatically they are both correct on the face of it, because we don't know who the actors in these sentences are. However, I presume, given context, one of them will not be appropriate. If the writer is identifying with 花田さん then あげる will be the correct choice.

nmkohi Wrote:If however you were talking about where 黒田さん had got that サンドイッチ
from, you would say that he くれる'd it from 花田さん.

It's important to note that くれる always means give, so Kuroda-san (or indeed anyone else) cannot 'くれる from' (that would have to be 'もらう from' or 'いただく from').

And Hanada-san got the sandwich from a sandwich shop! What is happening here is an action is being given (this is usual in Japanese, but rather awkward, to say the least, in English!). Hanada has given 'the buying of a sandwich' to Kuroda, rather than just the sandwich itself. In English, 'Hanada bought a sandwich for Kuroda'.

Both sentences mean the same thing and it's unambiguous who is doing what for whom, because に marks the person given to, and が (or は if emphasis is required, in which case is が disappears, but is implied) mark the giver, in other words the subject of the verb. Both verbs mean give, so Hanada is giving something to Kuroda in either case. The only issue is which kind of 'to give' is appropriate, and from the sentences alone, we cannot say.

Pangolin Wrote:あげる and くれる both mean give, but the difference is あげる is giving done by you or a member of your in-group to someone outside.

Thanks. That makes sense. I was thrown off by the use of あげる in the first sentence, and thought my text might be wrong. But Miss Hanada and Miss Kuroda are both members of the "leading character's" office, so it makes sense now. It's a little trickier than I originally thought. Here's another example:

お母さんが、子供に、クッキーを作ってあげる。

I assume this is a kid talking about his mother. It's even tougher, because he says お母さん, which sounds outside-ish, but still uses あげる. I'm thinking he could be saying this to another sibling, but would he still say 子供 if that was the case?

Pangolin Wrote:What is happening here is an action is being given (this is usual in Japanese, but rather awkward, to say the least, in English!).

I used to think of it that way, but now I think of it as buying and giving. One of the many things that don't translate well.

Hey, maybe it's the kids' mother saying her mother, the kids' grandma, is making the cookies. What do you think?

I think that Pangolin pretty much hit the nail on the head. あげる literally means to give in an upward direction (you can picture someone kneeling down, bowing his head and giving something up above him to someone of high rank). くれる literally means to give down and you can picture someone of high rank kindly bestowing something down to someone below him.

When I learnt about あげる and くれる, it was the first time that I came across the whole concept of 'inside' and 'outside' the group, そと and うち. It forms a huge part of Japanese culture and just about all of keigo (polite Japanese). So the rule is that if you're talking about someone in your group then they あげる to people outside the group and people outside the group くれる to people inside the group. The difficulties come in deciding who's inside and who's outside.

There's also another problem when both persons are outside, like with the original example on this thread. In this default case you use あげる. So the answer to your question is that

花田さんが、黒田さんに、サンドイッチを買って来てあげました。

is correct if both Hanada san and Kuroda san are outside your group. If Hanada san is inside and Kuroda san is outside then it's still correct. If Kuroda san is inside and Hanada san is outside then it's definitely wrong and rude. When they're both inside or both outside then you use あげる unless there are other considerations e.g.. age or social status. The inside and outside thinking will come into play if one of them is significantly older than the other or if one of them is a higher rank (e.g. teacher - student etc.).

I think of てくれる and てあげる as doing favours. So Hanada san did Kuroda san the favour of going and buying him a sandwich.

leosmith Wrote:But Miss Hanada and Miss Kuroda are both members of the "leading character's" office, so it makes sense now. It's a little trickier than I originally thought.

It is very tricky. Hanada and Kuroda are in the same group, we now know, but the speaker's position is also relevant. So くれる may still be appropriate, because we don't know anything about the speaker yet. If Kuroda is in the writer's group, or the writer is identifying with her, then くれる would be appropriate. However, to put an end to the agony, we must trust the writer to have chosen the correct verb! I would guess the viewpoint is neutral, so あげる would be right.

leosmith Wrote:Here's another example:

お母さんが、子供に、クッキーを作ってあげる。

I assume this is a kid talking about his mother. It's even tougher, because he says お母さん, which sounds outside-ish, but still uses あげる. I'm thinking he could be saying this to another sibling, but would he still say 子供 if that was the case?

I don't think there is anything to suggest that this is a child talking about his mother. This reads like it is written from a neutral point of view, but given what we've said about あげる lit. meaning to raise up (to someone of higher status) it seems odd that it is being used for a mother [doing the favour of] baking cookies for children. You would expect her to be "handing down" (くれる) the cookies. However, I think two points are relevant: again the writer's position is important, by using くれる the writer would be putting himself on the level of the children, which I suspect s/he wouldn't want to do; and although there is やる (a lower-respect version of あげる) which could be used for giving to children, I think this verb has become too impolite even for that, and is relegated to usage towards animals, and あげる has taken over.