Smackle Wrote:

masaman Wrote:http://hisazin-up.dyndns.org/up/src/90334.mp3

You actually said 僕の世界 instead of 俺の生活
But do I sound foreign? My acquaintance (who is not Japanese) said a while ago that I sounded "really American."

Duh, I can't even read Japanese right!!!

Honestly, You don't sound "really American". People whose native language is English usually sound a lot more foreign than you do. Pronunciation(sound of the words) wise, I really don't find anything foreign.

My American friend who spent 7 years in Japan and have a Japanese wife sounds almost like you do, but hardcore Japanese people who've never heard a non-Japanese person speaking Japanese would probably find you foreign sounding though, and that's mostly because of your pitch. I've never thought about it but I now started to think that we may have several pitch patterns and applying one of them to each word. I know which word has which pitch pattern and unless it is pronounced with the right pitch pattern, I for some reason feel it is "incorrect".

I speak English so I should be better in picking up the difference in pronunciation than 99% of Japanese, but when pronunciation is a little off in Japanese, I feel it is more like how people talk than it is incorrect, unless it is to the point it sounds like a different word.

Anyways, your voice sounds a lot better than mine, and I'm sure people want to listen to you than me, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

He was learning Japanese in college, and he said he sounded better than me (but he never let me hear him). I guess I should work more on making my pitches more normal. But I'm curious, do I sound worse, about the same, or better than
melody.

伊藤由奈

Leah Dizon

So I know where I am at. (I do not like how melody. talks for some reason)

Smackle Wrote:He was learning Japanese in college, and he said he sounded better than me (but he never let me hear him). I guess I should work more on making my pitches more normal. But I'm curious, do I sound worse, about the same, or better than
melody.

伊藤由奈

Leah Dizon

So I know where I am at. (I do not like how melody. talks for some reason)

Melody and 伊藤由奈 sound like native Japanese who is bilingual. They are speaking pretty much perfect「標準語」. Leah Dizon sounds really good too though she made about 3 pitch mistakes and her ability to speak Japanese seems to be very limited in other areas.

It's just about pitch and rhythm. Say Leah Dizon pronounced 5 words with wrong pitch and you did 3, I would think you are more "correct", so it kind of depends on the sentence I guess. It's not really about sounding good or bad, I think you sound really good.

And from hearing your clips, I think it wouldn't be so hard to make your clips sound almost like a native Japanese's. Possibly just 30 min or 1 hour if you get a native Japanese to really pick on and correct you face to face.

I wish it was easier to determine pitch so I could take note and practice them. I suppose I will just have to mimic a lot of 標準語 speakers. I'm curious as to how iSoron puts pitch in his cards. I can sort of determine what pitches there are based on dictionaries on a word to word basis, but it is still hard for me.

I'm not sure how Japanese learner's dictionaries look like, but my gut feeling is telling me there are only several or a dozen patterns at most. Leah Dizon's Japanese is really rudimentary and she still sounds pretty natural, so it shouldn't be that hard once you get the patterns.

wow past midnight again. good night!

I actually use Japanese dictionaries for Japanese people. Dictionaries for Japanese learners tend to be very bad.

masaman Wrote:

iSoron Wrote:I'll give it a try.

You did get most of the tone right on the top one. There are couple of places though, 三姉妹 and 3メーター are like this.
http://hisazin-up.dyndns.org/up/src/90332.mp3
you can use it on a lot of other words, like 郵便局、冷蔵庫、洗濯機 are pretty much the same pattern.

Many thanks, masaman!

Smackle Wrote:I'm curious as to how iSoron puts pitch in his cards.

Here's what my cards look like.

Does the part in a different color indicate where it rises?

Smackle Wrote:Does the part in a different color indicate where it rises?

It indicates the accented mora. You can read more about it here.

iSoron Wrote:

Smackle Wrote:Does the part in a different color indicate where it rises?

It indicates the accented mora. You can read more about it here.

Where did you get the information for the pitch? Yahoo's dictionary has a 50 next to it which I think means it is
　いあわせる
と

I've found a nice page that could be useful.
http://www.italki.com/knowledge/wiki-Jap...accent.htm

I also wonder if those anchorman dictionaries are useful... Like the NHK one (NHK日本語発音アクセント辞典). There's also a cd-rom version.

Edit: This page is even better: http://everything2.com/e2node/Pitch%2520...20language

Masaman it looks like you're working full time on this thread... we're gonna have to pay you! no, thanks for the help, really.

iSoron: that's some damn good looking fonts you have! Are you on ubuntu by any chance?

Smackle Wrote:Where did you get the information for the pitch? Yahoo's dictionary has a 50 next to it which I think means it is
　いわせる
と

You've missed a mora in your example, but that's right, the number indicates the pitch.

い あ わ せ
と る
１ ２ ３ ４ ５ ６

Two or more numbers indicates that there are two or more ways of reading it, I think. Zero means that the word is flat (the first mora is low-pitched and the remaining are high-pitched).

nac_est Wrote:iSoron: that's some damn good fonts you have? Are you on ubuntu by any chance?

いいえ, Gentoo Linux. The fonts are from Epson. You can get them (and a bunch of others fonts) here.

iSoron Wrote:Two or more numbers indicates that there are two or more ways of reading it, I think.

Oh, that makes so much more sense now. I think I can read the dictionary pitch numbers better now.

Here is a test of my skills:

あ　　の　と　　ざいま
　るひ　こ　でご　　　す

Right?

http://www.snapvine.com/bp/x1osegygEd6TTAAwSFxxvg
Yet another clip of me trying out my pitches. I do not really have a lot of control over my voice.

nac_est Wrote:Masaman it looks like you're working full time on this thread...

I know! I'm like hogging the whole topic! I should chill a bit. I did get paid by the comments on my English though, thanks to everyone.

Smackle Wrote:

iSoron Wrote:Two or more numbers indicates that there are two or more ways of reading it, I think.

Oh, that makes so much more sense now. I think I can read the dictionary pitch numbers better now.

Here is a test of my skills:

あ　　の　と　　ざいま
　るひ　こ　でご　　　す

Right?

http://www.snapvine.com/topic/create/a0c...30485b0f88
Yet another clip of me trying out my pitches. I do not really have a lot of control over my voice.

There you go! On the first part, You pronounced こと flat, but that's OK, I do that too and it's pretty common. Though, 助詞（の　で　が　etc.）usually goes down if the preceding word has an accent. so it should be
こと　　　　　
　　で 　
Other than that, you nailed the pitch.

By the way, you can make 助詞 higher like you did in the second half, if you want to emphasize the word. Some girls even exclusively use this form with the end of sentences going up like a question.

あ　　の　　　とで　　　ざいます
　る　　　　こ　　　　ご
　　ひ

This is a little too much, but is natural for a young girl so you'll probably hear it a lot.

Hm, I think I can add pitch to my cards now that I can better read dictionaries.
But I do not know how verb inflections work.
If できる is
　　き
で　　る
And ない is
な
　い
Is できない
　きな
で　　い
?

Also if たべる is
　べ
た　る
And させる is
　せる
さ
Is たべさせる
　べ　せる
た　さ
?

Smackle Wrote:But I do not know how verb inflections work.

I think when the word has an accent, させる's せ and the character immediately before ない will have the accent.

　き　　　　きさせ　　　 　　　　　　き
で　る　　で　　　る（strange grammar)　で　な
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 　　　　　　　い

か　　　　　えさせ　　　えさ
　え　　　か　　　る　か　　な
　　す　　　　　　　　　　　　　い


　たづけ　　　たづけさせ　　　　たづけ
か　　　る　か　　　　　　る　　か　　　な
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　い

If it does not, then flat.

　る　　らせる　　らない
や　　や　　　　や

　ずる　　ずらせる　　ずらない
け　　　け　　　　　　け


This is just off the top of my head and there probably are more rules, but this pattern matched 20 or so random verbs I came up with.

@masaman: Okay, I don't want to hijack the topic here or anything, but I just had an idea. I know this has been the subject of a bit/lot of debate in this forum, so I thought maybe you could "settle" the debate (I use that term loosely--I don't wanna start another debate, lol...). Seeing as you've been such a great help with evaluating everyone's Japanese as far as pitch and all that, maybe you could evaluate Khatzumoto's Japanese?

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ideo-debut

I know everyone here would be very thankful input on that. Both you and Khatzumoto seem to be very trusted people around here, so you'd be doing everyone a HUGE favor.

igordesu,
To me, he sounds REALLY natural. He doesn't pass as a native just yet, which may be a lot harder in Japan as Japan isn't as diverse as, say US, but he makes very little mistakes, and most notably he doesn't sound foreign. If I didn't read his blog, I would have thought he had gone to Jr. high and high school in Japan cause his Japanese sounds too natural for a person who started learning Japanese as an adult.

And he's funny too. プチトラウマ cracked me up :lol:

Wow, thank you so much. Your input is much, much appreciated. That's really great to hear. I've heard other people say this and that about his Japanese, but I know I can trust you That's awesome. I didn't have that many doubts about his Japanese, but...that's good to know. Thanks

You're very welcome

Nukemarine Wrote:Wonder if I should try posting me singing "明日晴れるかな". There is that karaoke site that has 15000 songs.

Kind of late, but you should definitely try singing that song. We should all sing that song for fun to see our Japanese singing voices.

Smackle Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:Wonder if I should try posting me singing "明日晴れるかな". There is that karaoke site that has 15000 songs.

Kind of late, but you should definitely try singing that song. We should all sing that song for fun to see our Japanese singing voices.

Why is it late? Here you go, but it's not good. My computer is not a karaoke machine.

http://www.snapvine.com/sb/3d9e377e0ed51...30485c72b4

masaman Wrote:igordesu,
To me, he sounds REALLY natural. He doesn't pass as a native just yet, which may be a lot harder in Japan as Japan isn't as diverse as, say US, but he makes very little mistakes, and most notably he doesn't sound foreign. If I didn't read his blog, I would have thought he had gone to Jr. high and high school in Japan cause his Japanese sounds too natural for a person who started learning Japanese as an adult.

And he's funny too. プチトラウマ cracked me up :lol:

Good to hear, but a quick question... if he doesn't pass as native, but he doesn't sound foreign, where does that put him?