I was just reading another topic and realized: I have absolutely no interest in trying to make or maintain an all-Japanese environment. I'm learning Japanese to supplement my lifestyle, not replace it.

Am I alone in this? I didn't think I was until I realized I've never heard any else say this.

I can't have a Japanese environment because I have a wife and kid.

It's a temporary measure. Like a college dorm. Once you achieve your goals, revert back to the environment you enjoy.

I often use 'immersion' and 'self-study' interchangeably to denote a certain mindset, but in terms of devoting large amounts of time to Japanese specifically to learn the language rather than for recreation, I'm not interested. I'm mostly interested in cleverly incorporating my focus of self-study (which is currently Japanese) into my life in optimal ways without negatively disrupting it.

bodhisamaya Wrote:It's a temporary measure. Like a college dorm. Once you achieve your goals, revert back to the environment you enjoy.

I would never intend to maintain an environment like that for even a month, and a month is far too short to do any good.

As I said, Japanese is something additional to everything else I enjoy, not a replacement in any form or for any duration.

phauna Wrote:I can't have a Japanese environment because I have a wife and kid.

demand a substitute for both of them

From the first time I read about AJATT and Khatzu's feat I have always been very enthusiastic about AJATT philosophy.
Nevertheless on the beginning it was very hard to change my environment.... For sure habits are hard to change .... But I think there's more in it .... You're supposed to change EVERYTHING. No better way to spoil your fun than trying to do everything you like in japanese even if you don't get a word ....I found it counter productive : you're exhausted quickly as your leisure time becomes a work time too .
So it was progressive .
On the beginning I just did RTK + my classwork .
I tried some japanese music , couldn't stand it , bought some manga , too hard to understand a single page .....
It's only after KO2001 and Kanzen that a radical change occured. I had a sufficient level to make a bit of a sense of what I was receiving.

Currently
I wake up and watch japanese news for 1 hour
I do my daily repetition with anki
Anytime I have less than 30 minutes I play adventure games with my DS .
When I have more than 30 minutes I watch either a movie I know in japanese (matrix , starwars , lethal weapon ,etc...) or an anime

I still have some real problems though
-I still don't have fun reading light novel (my next objective)
-I'm afraid japenese music will NEVER be a substitue to the music I dig (who's supposed to be the substitute of Sinatra , Elvis , Eminem , Lenny Kravitz , all the negros spirituals? )
-I don't find much info on soccer european league compared to what I usually read : european soccer fan gives you a day by day account of everything happening in his club including the most unlikely hoaxes .
In the same way gossip website are very different from their american and european counterpart : no trash And now and then I like to read about that : sometimes when you're really tired you just need to read some vicious , heartless , bastard , nasty comment to have a big grin on your face. Ok shame on me..... Japanese gossip websites look like they have been designed by the very staff of the stars they're talking about : no tongue in cheek comment , ultra clean shoot: no blurry or embarassing pictures ,only "official" event .... It's utterly boring. I guess it could be expected from the country of "idols".

phauna Wrote:I can't have a Japanese environment because I have a wife and kid.

You can get rid of them, you know.

~J

One of the most fluent people I ever met said that the only place where you could learn japanese was in bed
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he ditched his wife and remarried in japan .

bodhisamaya Wrote:It's a temporary measure. Like a college dorm. Once you achieve your goals, revert back to the environment you enjoy.

I don't think so . If you do it the right way , the magnitude of the change is too important. That's why it's so hard . If you're able to leap the gap you never really revert back . You just reach a new balance . That's also why it's so enthrilling to REALLY learn a new language you must be able to jeopardize your way of life and your identity .

I'm sure you're not the only one who doesn't want to create a 100% Japanese environment (not everyone is going down a AJATT-ish route, for starters). It would be a pretty big change, and inevitably, not every aspect will be practical for you. I know my English lecturers would be pretty mad if I swapped my books for the Japanese equivalent (especially, since, uh, I wouldn't have a hope of reading them)...hmm, wonder how well Middle-English poetry translates to Japanese...

Presumably, though, you want to learn Japanese because there's something you like about Japanese culture, right? So, if you wanted to, it could be pretty motivational to have Japanese things in that area - for instance, I have a book of short stories I desperately want to be able to read (and intend to use for sentence mining at some point), which I keep where I can see it. I do play Japanese music when I'm on the computer, or studying Kanji, but not all the time, as I personally couldn't stand constant noise, whether or not I could understand it. If it drives you crazy, then there's no point in torturing yourself with it, though you might be able to find something you don't mind listening to (Podcasts, audiobooks), which you could do for shorter periods.
Even just the decorations I have for my room (a hand-painted fan, a couple of Momiji dolls, some geeky figures of videogame characters) are a sure way of making sure I remember to do my Kanji learning. I also write Kanji I have trouble with on post-it notes, and stick them around the place.
Things like that are a simple way of making sure Japanese is part of my life, without taking over (I want to read English AND Japanese Literature, not one or the other).

I agree that learning a new language to fluency may well change you - maybe not in an incredibly dramatic way, but it's bound to grant a new perspective. You need to enjoy it, or why do it? So, you could focus on the things you already enjoy, and which attract you to Japanese. I don't agree with Khatz on everything, but the idea that it should be fun certainly makes sense to me.

wccrawford Wrote:I'm learning Japanese to supplement my lifestyle, not replace it.

I've watched movies before, now I watch Japanese movies.
I've listened to music before, now I listen to Japanese music.
I've downloaded podcasts before, now I download Japanese podcasts.
I've read comics before, now I read Japanese manga... (okay, not yet)

etc.

Not sure what you mean when you say "replacing" your lifestyle...

phauna Wrote:I can't have a Japanese environment because I have a wife and kid.

Marriage is a temporary measure. Like a dorm roommate. Once you achieve your goals, revert back to the girlfriends you enjoy.

wccrawford Wrote:I was just reading another topic and realized: I have absolutely no interest in trying to make or maintain an all-Japanese environment. I'm learning Japanese to supplement my lifestyle, not replace it.

Am I alone in this? I didn't think I was until I realized I've never heard any else say this.

Well, what are you learning Japanese for then? I always thought one would learn Japanese for an interest in the culture/place/media. So if that's the case, wouldn't it be pretty easy to make, at the very least, a Japanese intensive environment?

For example, if you like Japanese media, watch Japanese movies, read Japanese books, and listen to music in Japanese.

If you like Japan itself, read about it. It's history, current culture, etc. It will ALL be available in Japanese, and quite often (if not all the time) MORE will be available in Japanese. Not to mention you can listen to Japanese news online for free, read Japanese news stories on a multitude of sites (homepage is yahoo? Make it Japanese. Google? Make it Japanese).

And if you like the culture, you most certainly can read about that in Japanese.

I've never seen what was too difficult about doing this. I still do things in English. I have a lot of English speaking friends, so I can't cut them out (yet! ... Just kidding, but I am going to study in Japan for a semester so there will mostly be Japanese friends during that period). I also enjoy a bunch of shows in English (Heroes, Battlestar Galactica). I still do that stuff, but everything that can be switched to Japanese, is switched.

I don't get the point of this thread. If you have no interest in a Japanese environment then good for you. I would hope common sense would tell you that 99% of people don't create full Japanese environments so I really doubt you needed some sort of confirmation regarding that. Exactly what kind of meaningful response are you looking for?

You don't need to create a 100% JP environment and abandon all of your English(/other lang) centric interests. I'd think that leads to burnout. I certainly don't go for 100% and I'm doing very well.

I don't immerse at all. I lived in Japan, I'm done with that. I use tons of ideas from AJATT but immersion sure isn't one of them. I use an SRS to learn vocabulary. I read and watch more Japanese than I did before. I am VERY critical of my sources. That, however, is it. When I want to read wikipedia entries, I do so because I want to know something quickly. Forcing myself to use Japanese wikipedia would be extremely counter-productive. Besides, I've seen it as a futile idea. If you need information and is forcing yourself to use Japanese, you will have to rely on rikaichan etc to get it done effectively, making the whole point moot. In situations like youtube and facebook, you're just setting a Japanese interface to an English site, it doesn't change anything. It's not like you read every link anyway, you click where you know the function is.

I think immersion has benefits if it's done correctly. However, I don't think it's needed. Spend a good hour on Japanese studies each day in an effective way and you'll learn more than enough Japanese. Spend 8 hours a day and learn a 20% faster, it's up to the learner.

I immerse as much as possible with a little English thrown in there such as this website and 2 minute conversations in the morning.

After x period of time I burnout, take a few days off, then head right back in.

Repeat as necessary.

I don't try to immerse myself either. I don't want to avoid media I like (certain books, shows, sites) just because they aren't in Japanese. I'm not one for playing Japanese audio in the background either; it just doesn't appeal to me. Basically, I'm learning Japanese because I enjoy the language. If it takes longer to reach my goals because I have other hobbies, so be it...

activeaero Wrote:I don't get the point of this thread. If you have no interest in a Japanese environment then good for you. I would hope common sense would tell you that 99% of people don't create full Japanese environments so I really doubt you needed some sort of confirmation regarding that. Exactly what kind of meaningful response are you looking for?

99% don't, according to you... And yet I never saw a single person post that they didn't. So how obvious is it, really?

As for everyone ignoring what I posted and telling me to go all-Japanese anyhow: You just don't get it.

I -like- English things. I like Japanese things. I like everything. Going all-Japanese means I need to give up English movies, etc etc. I'm not willing to do that.

I'm learning Japanese because I -want- to. Nothing more. Why do you feel the need to make it this grand quest that wipes everything else out of your life, even if only for 6 months?

wccrawford Wrote:

activeaero Wrote:I don't get the point of this thread. If you have no interest in a Japanese environment then good for you. I would hope common sense would tell you that 99% of people don't create full Japanese environments so I really doubt you needed some sort of confirmation regarding that. Exactly what kind of meaningful response are you looking for?

99% don't, according to you... And yet I never saw a single person post that they didn't. So how obvious is it, really?

That depends on whether you're looking at the forum or out your window. Pick a community (real-life or internet) not heavily influenced by AJATT and you probably won't find a lot of total immersion.

Quote:As for everyone ignoring what I posted and telling me to go all-Japanese anyhow: You just don't get it.

I -like- English things. I like Japanese things. I like everything. Going all-Japanese means I need to give up English movies, etc etc. I'm not willing to do that.

I'm learning Japanese because I -want- to. Nothing more. Why do you feel the need to make it this grand quest that wipes everything else out of your life, even if only for 6 months?

The theory is that it'll result in meaningfully better learning. You provide a useful control; check back in in a year and we can see how much of a drawback it really is

(Though I should point out, not a single person reading this has actually chosen to make a full-immersion environment; what language do you suppose we're having this discussion in?)

~J

It just takes a large interest in japanese culture and media to do it. I mean, I don't have it so I never did the full immersion because for me its not fun, its not rewarding, etc.

If you like japanese music, movies, shows a lot already....well I don't see any downside to it.

I have a large interest in Japanese and I totally could do 100% immersion, but I think it's not necessary. Most of my friends are Japanese, my girlfriend is Japanese, I prefer Japanese music, I like Japanese comedy and movies. But at the same time I don't want to give up the few English songs I like, or hollywood movies, or snub my English speaking friends, or stop helping my GF with her English.

wccrawford Wrote:I'm learning Japanese because I -want- to. Nothing more. Why do you feel the need to make it this grand quest that wipes everything else out of your life, even if only for 6 months?

I think this statement is pretty silly, actually.

You're learning Japanese because you want to. Ok, that's all well and good. So am I. Why do you want to learn Japanese? I want to learn it because I like Japanese people, their media, and the history of the country. Since I like these things, and they are my motivation, I can use them to create an immersion environment. I like Japanese people, therefor I make Japanese friends and use Japanese to converse. I like the media and culture, so I watch movies and listen to music in Japanese. I love kanji, so I read a lot in Japanese, especially websites and news stories (because, quite honestly, I care far more about current sumo wrestlers than I do about A-Rod).

See where I'm going with this? All this comes together to provide a very nice immersion environment. Where, instead of just studying kanji and then looking up new words to add to my SRS, I also read some books in Japanese to relax (yes, I use a dictionary, sometimes quite often. However, I do NOT add things to my SRS from this, as it destroys my flow and then it's not relaxing to me). If I'm bored I'll throw on a Japanese movie, or if I don't have time for that, I'll watch some TV show I downloaded or some Gaki no tsukai.

I don't cut English out entirely, as I live in America and need English to function. However, where I can cut the English I do, because I want to learn Japanese and I feel this will help, plus I enjoy it.

Also, to the person who talked about Wikipedia, I think the point of starting to use it now would be to make it so that you CAN eventually use it as a quick reference. I believe it said in some post here or on AJATT that "If you want to be able to read manga, read manga. If you want to be able to watch a Japanese movie, watch a Japanese movie." It's really that simple.

Just do in Japanese what makes sense to do in Japanese. I don't know about everyone else but I'm aiming for bilingualism, not to become a Japanese guy.

ex: When I use Wikipedia, I use the language appropriate for the article I'm reading. Usually one is more detailed than the other.

ghinzdra Wrote:One of the most fluent people I ever met said that the only place where you could learn japanese was in bed

While this bit of advice is usually ignored by more serious language learners, it is VERY true. You learn so much more, learn about stuff you would otherwise never encounter (or rarely) and get a more intimate relationship with the language. It's not about the sex (although you can learn anatomy words that way ), it's about not being a lonely language warrior learning from sterile (textbooks) or unrealistic (movies, anime, manga, etc) sources. I don't think random sex with strangers would have much linguistic benefit though (unless you're especially cunning).