Ryuujin27 Wrote:"If you want to be able to read manga, read manga. If you want to be able to watch a Japanese movie, watch a Japanese movie." It's really that simple.

I did not believe this at first, because I thought looking stuff up in a dictionary, add stuff to the SRS etc. while doing so would ruin all the fun about it, but it really is true. And even if you do not bother to use an SRS at all, you still learn lots just by consuming media because you begin to figure out the context all on your own.
I really wish I had used this method from the very beginning.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't think random sex with strangers would have much linguistic benefit though (unless you're especially cunning).

"Oh yeah, baby, I love it when you speak 敬語 to me."

wccrawford Wrote:I'm learning Japanese because I -want- to. Nothing more. Why do you feel the need to make it this grand quest that wipes everything else out of your life, even if only for 6 months?

I think the immersion is all about gaining a certain critical mass of familiarity and knowledge which will then let you learn things with much less effort. Once you have done RTK, perhaps gone through something like KO2001 and watched a lot of dramas and anime then you will be on a level of understanding the gist of things. Once you understand the gist, not just individual words and phrases, I mean you know what is going on and why in a movie or a conversation, then learning becomes something natural. You will absorb things through osmosis.

I wish I was a younger man in Japan with a hardcore immersion environment. However I can't do that so it will just take a little longer. I figure when I'm eighty this continuous discussion of the speediest, most efficient method will be rather moot.

Yes, but for entirely different reasons. Being a High School student (no money), and living in a country with no online shopping (or one where it is really difficult to do so).

The only place where I can immerse myself is at the computer, or on my iPod (which I left in my apartment in Canada x_x), and even that, I do poorly, it's such a task reading manga on the computer...

"Is that a わ or a ね？ *Zooms in*, Okay, now it looks like mush, it's probably わ. *Searches on Yahoo dictionary*, *No results found*, *sigh* -_-, keep reading...".

woodwojr Wrote:(Though I should point out, not a single person reading this has actually chosen to make a full-immersion environment; what language do you suppose we're having this discussion in?)

~J

By that logic, Khatz doesn't have one, either.

At this point, the only thing I have given up is English-translated manga. I refuse to read them in anything but Japanese now. If I can't read one yet, it goes on the shelf until I can.

But everything else remains the same, because I enjoy it too much. I still watch subbed anime and movies, as well as regular English movies and TV.

To everyone saying my position/question sounds stupid: It only sounds stupid from where you're at. I needed a reality check to make sure my head wasn't on backwards. If everyone had come out and said I was 100% wrong (which I would expect on a forum for AJATT, but I expect a more balanced response here) then I would have had to seriously reconsider my stance on the subject.

I was in a position that there were 2 options. Either what I was doing was so uncommon that nobody would talk about it out of fear or whatever, or it was so common that nobody talked about it because it was just the way things are.

I've fallen into the trap of thinking my ways were the common ones before, and found out I was horribly wrong. Re-examining those ways has led me to be a better person before, and I thought maybe this was another of those scenarios.

Everyone's responses have been very helpful in clearing my head. Thank you.

phauna Wrote:I can't have a Japanese environment because I have a wife and kid.

I'm sorry I'm coming into this late, but I would imagine that being in Japan with a family would present great opportunities for learning Japanese through interaction with Japanese parents and kids, teachers or daycare workers, etc. A lot of social interactions and conversations happen in the course of ordinary, ongoing activities that foreigners do not always join.

I imagine it would be possible to could find a Japanese couple with a child of a similar age to do some sort of language exchange / occasional tourist outing. When I was in high school, my family was stationed on a base in Japan, and we went through the local city office to find a family to do cultural exchange activities with. It worked out fairly well even though there didn't seem to have been a precedent for it there.

wccrawford Wrote:To everyone saying my position/question sounds stupid: It only sounds stupid from where you're at. I needed a reality check to make sure my head wasn't on backwards. If everyone had come out and said I was 100% wrong (which I would expect on a forum for AJATT, but I expect a more balanced response here) then I would have had to seriously reconsider my stance on the subject.

I was in a position that there were 2 options. Either what I was doing was so uncommon that nobody would talk about it out of fear or whatever, or it was so common that nobody talked about it because it was just the way things are.

I've fallen into the trap of thinking my ways were the common ones before, and found out I was horribly wrong. Re-examining those ways has led me to be a better person before, and I thought maybe this was another of those scenarios.

LOL. This has been mildly entertaining. Thank you.

wccrawford Wrote:I was just reading another topic and realized: I have absolutely no interest in trying to make or maintain an all-Japanese environment. I'm learning Japanese to supplement my lifestyle, not replace it.

Am I alone in this? I didn't think I was until I realized I've never heard any else say this.

This makes perfect sense. Some things are not available in Japanese and I, too, am not planning to give up on them.

I just changed my media. Btw, you can get rid of your wife, but not your kids.

wccrawford Wrote:I was in a position that there were 2 options. Either what I was doing was so uncommon that nobody would talk about it out of fear or whatever, or it was so common that nobody talked about it because it was just the way things are.

Or it may be one way for some and the other way for others.

mentat_kgs Wrote:I just changed my media. Btw, you can get rid of your wife, but not your kids.

The kids are easier to get rid of, they're more compact and don't run as fast.

~J

mentat_kgs Wrote:I just changed my media. Btw, you can get rid of your wife, but not your kids.

Could ship the kids off to a boarding school, in Japan. After a few years they'd be of use to him.

I always get surprised how people from this forum have the greatest ideas.

I literally go all Japanese. I haven't watched anything in English for so long. The burnout doesn't come from listening to too much Japanese, it's from your mentality. For me, it's when I get impatient and realize that even though I've gone a long way, there is still so much more to learn.

Btw, it just takes time. We all resist change. I'm at the point where hanging out with my friends and talking in English makes me feel guilty to the point I want to leave. lol
In the beginning I was just like you.

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:Btw, it just takes time. We all resist change. I'm at the point where hanging out with my friends and talking in English makes me feel guilty to the point I want to leave. lol
In the beginning I was just like you.

I would say that's where you go from being an enthusiastic learner to an obsessive perfectionist.

If you have an English show you want to watch and decide not to simply because you "need" to immerse... I think you've missed the point of learning a language for fun.

Here's another option for kids-- space exchange student. The exchange students have to be in at least 2nd grade, but they go away for a year to a tiny Japanese village on a remote island where they join the junior astronaut club. I don't know if they'd let a foreigner join, but the child would undoubtedly come back with excellent Japanese and maybe a funny little astronaut costume. Too bad they don't have it for adults.

http://www14.synapse.ne.jp/minamita/utyu...dex4-2.htm

Edit: actually, maybe JET is the adult version.

I lowered the doorway in my room to 6ft. to simulate the environment of walking through the entrance of a Japanese home and bashing my head.

Tobberoth Wrote:If you have an English show you want to watch and decide not to simply because you "need" to immerse... I think you've missed the point of learning a language for fun.

I agree. Also, I would never cut down on contact with my friends/family/other important people just because they speak English instead of Japanese.

Like others have said, I study Japanese to expand my options not to switch all my options to only Japanese ones. If I want to read something I read it, if I want to watch something I watch it; English or Japanese doesn't matter. I want to enjoy more things, not a different set of things.

EDIT:

stoked Wrote:I've read comics before, now I read Japanese manga... (okay, not yet)

Transmetropolitan, Fables, The Ultimates, Planetary, The Runaways, Lucifer, Daredevil, Y the Last Man, etc.. I like manga sure, but I could never stop reading comics for it.

Tobberoth Wrote:

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:Btw, it just takes time. We all resist change. I'm at the point where hanging out with my friends and talking in English makes me feel guilty to the point I want to leave. lol
In the beginning I was just like you.

I would say that's where you go from being an enthusiastic learner to an obsessive perfectionist.

If you have an English show you want to watch and decide not to simply because you "need" to immerse... I think you've missed the point of learning a language for fun.

I went through this phase. It sucks.

To achieve happiness in learning Japanese:

1. Create immersion environment.

2. Read suggestions from this forum.

3. Meditate with suggestions in head until Zen moment is reached.

4. Eat some ice cream.

5. Use English and Japanese.

wccrawford Wrote:I've fallen into the trap of thinking my ways were the common ones before, and found out I was horribly wrong. Re-examining those ways has led me to be a better person before, and I thought maybe this was another of those scenarios.

Cool attitude. Now...about that guy you're convinced is a "loser" in that other thread... ;-) More seriously, I agree it's sometimes worth stating the seemingly obvious if only to get more balanced info out there. The OCD-types who try to adhere to the 'maximize fun' as well as the 'maximize immersion' principles before they're ready must have it rough.

Also, I really want to thank some of you for the following:

"I lowered the doorway in my room to 6ft..."
"Edit: actually, maybe JET is the adult version."
"Could ship the kids off to a boarding school, in Japan. After a few years they'd be of use to him.
"The kids are easier to get rid of, they're more compact and don't run as fast."
"Oh yeah, baby, I love it when you speak 敬語 to me."
"The process of having random sex with strangers is probably the only reason I can speak Japanese."

...you made it a great coffee break!

I've come to the point where
1) I can't make myself watch American movies any more (I didn't like the ones from my country from the beginning)
2) I haven't read a non-Japanese book in more than a year
3) I really don't care about non-Japanese music

The exceptions are a few internet sites and my university studies (for now, at least).
I would explain this attitude with the fact that I'm in a "growing up phase" of my life, and I want to change and try more things. It could be that I'm escaping from reality, but it doesn't look like it to me, I don't think so.

I think it all depends on what you want to become, what you are willing to do and what it means to you to be learning Japanese. And also on what your situation is.

i think in my situation the more Japanese i learn, the more I am able to immerse myself. For example when I stopped watching anime with subs a year ago i stopped watching anime so much. But then as I learned more and more japanese i started watching more and more anime again. I finally got to a point where i can follow the basic plot (not the details quite yet) of an anime which makes it enjoyable enough to watch it all day again. The more you watch..the quicker you will become able to understand, and the more you understand...the more you will watch. I find that improvement in language is not linear it is exponential.

I cant enjoyably read manga yet..but what i can do is read pc magazines and and technology blogs because I already know about that stuff. But...once i get to the point where i can read manga and japanese novels...again that is another boost to how fast you will progress.

Also, the computer is a big one(I am sure it is safe to say that a huge ratio of us are to some extent computer nerds)...putting the thing in Japanese is great not because the "start" bar turns to スタート but it is just that much easier to get japanese content to come at you. When i type something into my browser the japanese links always come up first...it is a constant reminder of what my goal is. I may not be able to read that link ..but at least i am reminded of my issue, not being able to read. Also a recent discovery(for me), is the longer you "try" to create a japanese environment the more it becomes so. For example, I turned my computer into japanese setting..because of doing that i was directed to a japanese torrent sites..which in turn i was directed to new content in japanese.

Everyone has a different mind set. Some like to study leasurely, and some take it personal (like me). I put myself into the mindset that I have to learn how to read and write again. A japanese environment is great for reminding you of your "issue"

saizen Wrote:i think in my situation the more Japanese i learn, the more I am able to immerse myself. For example when I stopped watching anime with subs a year ago i stopped watching anime so much. But then as I learned more and more japanese i started watching more and more anime again. I finally got to a point where i can follow the basic plot (not the details quite yet) of an anime which makes it enjoyable enough to watch it all day again. The more you watch..the quicker you will become able to understand, and the more you understand...the more you will watch. I find that improvement in language is not linear it is exponential.

My objection to this is that -exactly- the same thing happens if you keep watching them with subs, but also study vocab.

When I first got serious, I joined a book club. (Really a manga club.) The first book was Yotsuba& volume 1. I couldn't read anything. I could pronounce the kana, but didn't know any words. More books came through the club and I still couldn't read, but I kept trying. A single chapter took me quite a few hours because I had to look up everything and learned none of the words, even though I looked them up.

Then I joined LiveMocha. Through that, I learned a few words... Enough that Yotsuba& wasn't quite so painful, but was still no fun.

Then I did the first 400 on iKnow. At that point, I picked Yotsuba& back up as if it were fresh and started from the beginning. Suddenly, I could understand 1/2 of what was being said! It was passable entertainment finally. A few more hundreds of vocab later, I can understand about 3/4 of the speech in Yotsuba& and I've read all 8 volumes. (Okay, I've got 1 chapter left. I read them at lunch -for fun-.)

At the same time, I understand more of the dialogue in anime than before and the subs provide a constant check on whether I'm hearing what I think or not. (Yes, the subs are often wrong, but I can often tell that, too!)

My point is this: You do not have to give up -any- fun in order to learn Japanese, as long as you keep studying. You don't have to give up subtitles, or english movies, or any of that mess. Just do what's fun and keep up with your studies and you'll be having fun in Japanese in no time.