When studying RtK with flashcards I know you're supposed to go keyword to kanji always. What about when studying vocabulary? Is it better to go from the English word to the Japanese word? Or is it better to go the other way around? Both? I want to know which is better before I make masses of flashcards for my Japanese class.

english to japanese. if you can express your own thoughts in a foreign language, it makes it easier to understand others'.

akrodha Wrote:english to japanese. if you can express your own thoughts in a foreign language, it makes it easier to understand others'.

Agreed - this is how I learn the word's pronunciation. In addition, I study vocab from Japanese to English to practice reading kanji.

First J-E to see if you understand the word, later you study them backwards to be able to use them both ways. Starting from E-J might prove to be extremly difficult.

at a certain level u really want to be studying E-J // J-E and also J-J. i think that is important for making the usage of the word more concrete.

I write down the sentence where I encountered the word and leave a blank. I then look up a definition in the 広辞苑（こうじえん） and write that down too. On the other side of the card I write the hiragana and the kanji。When drilling, if I haven't successfully identified both the kanji and the hiragana from the fill-in-the-blanks and definition prompts then I fail the card.

Definitions from the 広辞苑 will be a bit of a nightmare for beginners but you can put in Japanese hints instead. eg.

手紙を送る　（てがみをおくる） 切手を買う　（きってをかう） -> 郵便局　（ゆうびんきょく）

Alternatively write more example sentences with blanks where the word goes.

I prefer not to use English at all and I believe that beginners can do the same if they want to. Whether you choose to do this or not, I cannot recommend highly enough putting an example sentence into your reviewing. The situation that you first encountered the word is a good one. Also, try to create some example sentences or example dialogues by yourself and check with your Japanese teacher or a Japanese person.

If "study" means "flipping through flashcards", then yes, E-J. I don't spend any time on flashcards J-E.

You get plenty of J-E practice by reading Japanese. Read books, TV show credits, even cooking instructions on ramen packages, and you'll have the J-E practice covered.

Once I finish RTKI, I'll probably start drilling J-J (kana-kanji) for compounds and vocabulary, as well as expand E-J for more vocabulary, but I'll continue to let reading cover the J-E practice.

The bad point about involving English in your learning is that you think in English when producing Japanese. A good example would be when Fabrice wanted to say that he had visited somewhere on one of the other threads. He said something like

大阪を訪ねました。 I visited Osaka.

Even though you can say this in English, the verb 訪ねる in Japanese can only be used when visiting people, not places. (And the particle was wrong too). It's far more natural to simply say,

大阪に行きました。

When you look up 訪ねる in your dictionary, you will find the translation 'visit' but it won't tell you how to use the word. If you're drilling from English all the time then you'll start speaking and writing on a word-by-word basis. At least, this is what happened to me.

Drilling from English for nouns seems harmless enough, after all a dog is a dog is a dog. You're not going to make too many mistakes with usage. However, verbs and adjectives can be trickier. I think it's important to always keep everything in context. Example sentences are gold dust. You've got to associate a word with its meaning and not its English translation.

[ファブリス]

Regarding avoiding the use of english in the vocabulary flashcards, I suppose it depends on how you setup the flashcards. There are some great examples here : Definition-word items in SuperMemo.

The flashcard question indicates how the word is to be used, in what context, it also sometimes lists similar words so that you know the correct answer is something else.

There are some excellent articles on learning by input here :

Learning by Input

It's for english, but once you are past the kanji "barrier" the game is the same, as far as my limited experience with reading/writing japanese can tell.

We could share some vocabulary flashcard examples, for example:

Q = to listen secretly to a private conversation

A <to eavesdrop> (in japanese)
<exemplary sentence in japanese including the word in the proper context>

I think you'd need a serious level of Japanese already for providing the question (Q) itself in Japanese, but given the exemplary sentence in japanese I don't think this is a problem. The actual word in english (here, "to eavesdrop") may not even need to be included.

syntoad Wrote:When studying RtK with flashcards I know you're supposed to go keyword to kanji always. What about when studying vocabulary? Is it better to go from the English word to the Japanese word? Or is it better to go the other way around? Both? I want to know which is better before I make masses of flashcards for my Japanese class.

Well syntoad, you really opened up a can of worms! :lol:
I knew this would be contoversial; this topic always is. You probably know by now that everone learns differently. For that reason, the best thing may be to try out 2 or more methods, and see what works best for you. Ganbatte kudasai!

I'm reading Brave Story at the moment. It's come out as an animated film in Japan but it hasn't made it to Europe yet. I make a flashcard every time I see a new word (which is often). I take the sentence where the new word appeared and do a fill-in-the-blanks. I then take the definition from the 広辞苑 or if that's too difficult, I make up some hints in Japanese. Here's an example:

Q: p12 <- Page reference

カッちゃんは＿＿＿のときからの付き合いなのだから　　<- (Part of) Sentence taken from the book

三歳から小学校就学までの教育機関 <- 広辞苑 definition

A: 幼稚園　ようちえん

I don't worry if I forget how to read some of the words in the definition part, as long as I remember the main word, it's meaning and what it means in the sentence taken from the book.

Quote:I think you'd need a serious level of Japanese already for providing the question (Q) itself in Japanese

I don't think so. You're not trying to create a fantastic crossword clue with no ambiguity. You're just trying to give yourself enough to stimulate your memory. Even if you don't like the 広辞苑 definition, you don't have to use it. You can give yourself lots of hints like 若いこどもの場所 or something like that. If you can create more example sentences then that will not only help in creating a more detailed flashcard, it will be good practice for using the word. A large quantity of small hints can be just as good a small number of big giveaways (like an English translation). Plus, the more effort you put into making the flashcard, the more likely you will be to remember what you're trying to memorise.

I have to agree with wrightak on this one: it is preferrable to study words in their own context and not be overly concerned with what the word corresponds to in your mother tongue. Examples given illustrate the point quite nicely. If one's too lazy to populate flashcards with sample sentences, a rough translation of the word into the mother tongue should suffice but reviewing it from the mother tongue to Japanese actually does little for anchoring the word in one's active vocabulary and, in my opinion, is rather counterproductive. But then again, I am also in favour of replacing Heisig's English words for kanji with Japanese equivalents...

wrightak Wrote:I don't think so. You're not trying to create a fantastic crossword clue with no ambiguity. You're just trying to give yourself enough to stimulate your memory.

Speaking of which, this reminds me of one of my favorite recent discoveries for ways to "review the kanji." A friend here has the DS soft Eigo ??? (and now the name escapes me) something or other which is intended for reviewing English, specifically for one of the TOEIC or whatever type tests they all like to crow about ;-) The majority of the games are listening to sentences spoken, with a Japanese translation printed on the screen while you "write in" the sentences as heard with the stylus. One of the interesting games is a crossword puzzle wherein you are given a hint, or the actual word, in Japanese, and you have to write it out in English. Even without knowing the readings of the kanji, most you can guess from the keyword (yes, kanji-keyword bad ect ect), and it has been a fun way to look up Japanese words I am not familiar with. In general I would not want to play a video game in Japanese, that is the one time I don't want to be bothered with the "fun challenge" (and they must agree, even the Japanese I know who speak great english HATE using software not converted over), but these educational softs are fantastic. I just wish they made one like the brain training series (which are pretty good in their own right for testing kanji if your Japanese level is up to snuff) for the perhaps 100 foreigners living in Japan with a DS who would buy it!

There are some really interesting ideas in this thread, as well as the "Eliminating the need for English keywords - help needed" thread. The way I see it, picking the best review schedule and method is not only better for retention, but could save considerable amounts of time.

I'm attemping to consolidate and optimize my vocabulary review process at the moment. I have been reviewing both E->J and J->E, but recently cut out the J->E category, since I don't think it was adding much value to my review.

I really like the idea of slowly converting over to J->J reviewing, but I'm only ~100 frames through RTK1, so perhaps the idea is a bit premature. Would you (those who are trying to convert) recommend getting to the end of RTK1 before proceeding with this plan, or is there a phased approach you think would work? I'm currently using mnemosyne to review vocabulary and grammar, while using this site to work on RTK1, but I'm considering moving everything over to mnemosyne just for simplicity's sake.

wrightak and laxxy, is your work-in-progress available online?

Thanks in advance for your advice and assistance!

I'm doing it that way....baby steps....first do RTK1 the way it is, E->kanji, then after that step is done, then start to tie the kanji to the Japanese. So, I guess I'm saying that I recommend doing it that way. I know lots of Japanese vocab already (without the kanji), but I still think this way is best.

I still have it in my mind that eventually, I'll have all J keywords, AND my stories I'll translate into Japanese too, and that'll be my J-J for kanji. For now, though, I'm working thru RTK3 (E->K) and then also reading as much as I can, with the vocab coming from whatever I'm reading. My focus in my reading is K->J...I can pretty well go K->E, but I don't know the reading, so I cannot "read it aloud". Frequently this becomes "Oh, that's how you write that word", since I already knew the word as part of my active vocabulary.

Darkshade,

Glad you've shown interest. If you send me an email, I'd be happy to send you the list so far. It would be great to upload it somewhere, if you have any suggestions then let me know.

I fully believe that you can go straight to J-J at any time. It's all about the context that you encounter words in. If you remember the context then you're half way to remembering the meaning and when and how to use the word. This basically means that I would never recommend just learning a list of words with English translations. You have to know how to use the word and this goes for any level of learning I think. So if you want to learn a word, it should be because you've encountered it somewhere. More than likely in a sentence or as part of a dialogue. Put that sentence or dialogue into your reviewing. My suggestion is with a fill in the gaps exercise but you could just have it as a side note in your flash card if you want.

If you really are just starting out with Japanese and you're learning the real basics like the verbs to go, to buy, and the nouns post office, stamp etc. Then in this case the context you're using may be too simple to remind you of the word and identify it. In this case, I'd recommend using images. Nouns would be easy and even verbs could work. Remember, it just has to be enough to remind you which word you're trying to remember, it doesn't have to identify the word perfectly.

I think it all comes down to how much time you want to dedicate to it. Reviewing from English is extremely easy and quick. These other methods don't have that advantage.

Wrightak, your missing word system is really cool! Up until now, I've just been reading and jotting down the words I don't know, then at the end of the page or chapter I go away and learn the works (kanji -> reading -> english) and then go back re-read it, but I think your system will be better in the long run so I'll give it a try. I'm also a firm believer in example sentences, I don't think I'd be able to get by without them infact. Sometimes I find myself having to explain a concept that I didn't think I could, but then find my brain automatically modifying an example sentence that I had concreted into my brain, so they're pretty powerful for me. One thing about reviewing from English to Japanese, make sure you got the list of words from a Japanese source in the first place, looking up a bunch of English words in an E-J Dictionary that you think you want to know is a really, really bad idea...

wrightak Wrote:So if you want to learn a word, it should be because you've encountered it somewhere. More than likely in a sentence or as part of a dialogue. Put that sentence or dialogue into your reviewing. My suggestion is with a fill in the gaps exercise but you could just have it as a side note in your flash card if you want.

this is obviously the best way to retain words, having a vivid memory of when it was first encontered etc, it also means that you will be "waiting" for words to find you. In the case of reviewing RTK without using English (the way you are) more likely than not, you will not have the luxury of having a pre-encountered 熟語/単語 that incorporate the kanji. this is when drilling really comes into its own. I, like you, have the luxury of having very close, studious japanese friends who i can ask for advice as to which 熟語 to use for a specific kanji. (this post is over-running into the "Eliminating the need for English keywords - help needed" thread, ごめん) take the new word, google it, ALC it, mixi it, whatever you use to see its usage in real life. Context is key. without context you are stuck with just A WORD.

to get back on track:

again, reviewing E>J is basically a temporary measure (all be it probably a long one) until you can review J>J. in the case of reviewing nouns E>J usually a dog = 犬 equals sign will work, but when it comes to verbs and adjectives, if not using examle sentances showing how the word is used, you will never fully understand that word i believe.

Wow, thanks for all the advice! I really appreciate it. I'm going to try to start converting, or at least augmenting my review process with more native J-J cards, and I'll let you know how it goes.

Unlike most people here it seems, I prefer reviewing Japanese to English, and that's how I've set up my flashcards in Mnemosyne. The way I work is to read Japanese: websites, books, mangas, games, or listen to audio blogs, and add any new words I come across as flashcards. On one side, the word in Kanji, on the other side, the pronunciation in hiragana and the translations as given by EDICT.

For me this works well because all words come from a context, so I have an idea how they are used as well. The big EDICT entries serve to confirm the "image" I have of that word. While reviewing I usually say the word out loud and check if I got the hiragana correct. Most of the time I don't even need to look at the English translation part, because the meaning has stuck already. When I do see a word I know how to say but can't remember the meaning of (this is fairly rare) I look at the EDICT translations in some more detail and fail the card.

Because I use Japanese mostly for reading, this approach works fine. Producing words for speaking or writing is harder, since I don't practice that much. Though I usually have a good sense of the right word to use, it takes some time to find it... I'll need to work on that later to achieve speaking fluency. But that's not a priority right now.

Piitaa Wrote:Unlike most people here it seems, I prefer reviewing Japanese to English, and that's how I've set up my flashcards in Mnemosyne. The way I work is to read Japanese: websites, books, mangas, games, or listen to audio blogs, and add any new words I come across as flashcards. On one side, the word in Kanji, on the other side, the pronunciation in hiragana and the translations as given by EDICT.

you are PASSIVELY reviewing. you understand the word WHEN YOU SEE IT. allow me to clarify:

if you are in a situation that requires a specific word that you have learnt and you have to recall it from memory rather than having the word presented to you in a pretext, you may have difficulties in remembering the word. therefore if reviewing from example sentances, you should at least block out the word you are trying to remember as this promotes you to recall the word from your own memoery. a more ACTIVE approach.

just yorkii's opinion though.

Yep, I realize what the downsides of doing it this way are. However, at the moment my focus is to read as much as possible and build reading speed. The J-E reviews help more with that than reviewing the other way around. Of course it would be best to review both ways, but that costs too much time for me at the moment. Another reason is that I haven't used RTK2 or KanjiChains to learn kanji pronunciations, with J-E reviews I'm picking these up at the same time. Another option I've considered is doing E-J reviews and writing down the word in kanji. That would help both recognition and active production, but again, very time consuming.

Once I can comfortably read newspaper-level text (without encountering 30 new words in each article I read XD), I'm thinking of switching to E-J or J-J reviewing to 'activate' all the knowledge I've built, but for now I feel I can progress faster in this way.

Piitaa Wrote:with J-E reviews I'm picking these up at the same time. Another option I've considered is doing E-J reviews

Hey Piitaa, do you think there is any advantage using English instead of your native language in reviews? For example, I wonder if using Spanish instead of English when I review will force my brain into a space that is more friendly to foreign languages. I remember Barry Farber making some comment like "you know you're really a polyglot when you use Russian to learn Czechoslovakian". J to J definitely doesn't work for me, but maybe S to J or J to S would be good. Whadya think?

I would suggest that what you are REALLY reviewing is Kanji to Japanese, and then, only if you have forgotten the Japanese, do you review Japanese to English. You're using the English definition to remind you of the meaning of the Japanese word. I agree that, having read the kanji to the japanese word successfully, you'd rarely misunderstand the Japanese word. If you were really going all the way to English, you'd see the kanji, say it in Japanese and then say an English word.

The more you get to just understanding Japanese, the less need to look at the definition (in any language). I just have the suspicion that having that definition available in Japanese would further strengthen the Japanese reading. IMO.

leosmith Wrote:I wonder if using Spanish instead of English when I review will force my brain into a space that is more friendly to foreign languages. I remember Barry Farber making some comment like "you know you're really a polyglot when you use Russian to learn Czechoslovakian". J to J definitely doesn't work for me, but maybe S to J or J to S would be good. Whadya think?

sounds rediculous to me. why review from a language that you are not 100% certain of to review another language. this is adding more complexity to the whole process. thus taking longer and being less efficient. dont bring spanish in at all. review from Native to Japanese or Japanese to Japanese.