I eat soup with a knife.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I eat soup with a knife.

I eat soup with a spoon I stole from some Japanese whalers. I gripped it by the concave end, but I couldn't eat the soup properly. I think it must mean that the spoon wasn't made in Japan. Thus I've come to this forum of doppelgangers to argue in simplistic, absolutist statements ad nauseam about the value of Japanese-made spoons.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I eat soup with a knife.

Ah, I see you've played Knifey-Spoony before.

Ironically most Japanese soups are drunk directly from the bowl, sometimes with the aid of chopsticks if there is a lot of stuff in it.

-edit-
Is there any situation in which a Simpsons reference is not appropriate?

Antimoon is being pretty consistent with its overall philosophy: studying on a foreign country is bad because it forces you to speak too soon. If you're already at an advanced level, this drawback does not apply.

The other claim Antimoon makes, about automatically learning the country's language being a myth, is trivial. There are counter-examples everywhere.

Output isn't bad as long as you have a method for self-correction, in my opinion. Even if I were 'forced' to continuously output things I don't know well, I'd just make sure to practice those things when actively studying in a close span of time, and of course preemptively when possible.

The whole premise about "speaking too soon" is silly. I haven't read the site but it seems that the entire premise is based off of people who aren't even TRYING to learn the language, just as long as they can work their unskilled labor job.

Probably some of my most effective study was when I was placed into a situation where my language was inadequate, felt embarrassed, and then went home and studied it later. It's sometimes funny when I have a conversation like that, and then a few days later I continue the discussion with the same people and they look at me funny because it's a night & day difference.

Jarvik7 Wrote:The whole premise about "speaking too soon" is silly.

While I think they take it too far, I think they have a point. Sometimes, if you try to do too much at once, everything suffers. Just like Heisig recommends you learn RTK while doing nothing else, trying to speak while you're still learning the basics is a bad idea. It not only takes time away from your other studies directly, but it does it indirectly by having you try to think about how you'd use new vocab in a sentence all the time. That can very safely wait until you've got a ton of vocab under your belt.

zwarte_kat Wrote:"Perhaps the most prominent people who believe in this "common-sense truth" are European parents who pay a lot of money to send their children to language schools in England, expecting that they will come back speaking fluent English."

"Most immigrants in America don't speak English very well, even after living there for 20 years. Many of them have been making the same basic mistakes for decades — for example, saying things like "He make tea?" instead of "Did he make tea?" or "I help you" instead of "I will help you". They typically speak with strong accents, which enables others to instantly classify them as Asians, Latinos, Russians, etc."

Let me guess: You are an American (US).

I think that's a quote from Antimoon- aren't they Polish?

uhh, natives say "he make tea?"

I say "he make tea?"

Hell, sometimes it's just "e make any tea?"

Looks like musigny tossed some fish flakes into the aquarium and walked away... probably laughing

I question whether enough cultural understanding can be acquired without actually living the language. Can TV and books about culture fully equip someone to really function smoothly (if that's the ultimate goal)? A Japanese expat community would be the closest thing, but still not the same.

If you speak well, there's a greater expectation that you understand the social nuances of the language as well. So someone who learns advanced Japanese in their dorm room back home might have some awkward moments when they start living in Japan. I see it as more of a timing issue. [Ideally, get a foundation before you go, then progress 'in context' as others have described]

Then again, some Japanese like hanging out with foreigners because they are foreign (and some foreigners clearly enjoy feeling special). Foreigners acting 'too Japanese' can be seen as kind of weird.

About foreigners and Japanese, watch Ichigo Mashimaro. Anna-chan rocks!

You can only be racist toward races, interestingly enough.

Jarvik7 Wrote:The whole premise about "speaking too soon" is silly. I haven't read the site but it seems that the entire premise is based off of people who aren't even TRYING to learn the language, just as long as they can work their unskilled labor job.

Probably some of my most effective study was when I was placed into a situation where my language was inadequate, felt embarrassed, and then went home and studied it later. It's sometimes funny when I have a conversation like that, and then a few days later I continue the discussion with the same people and they look at me funny because it's a night & day difference.

I couldn't agree more. Being put into situations where I was forced to push beyond the boundaries of my current Japanese level made me very aware of my own limitations ("wow, I wanted to say X, but I have no freakin' idea how to say that!"). And, being a motivated student, I've never been satisfied with the garbled shite that I managed to utter at that point in time to get my idea across, and instead always went home afterward and looked up the correct way to say what I had wanted to say.

I think a conscious, motivated student is going to be constantly trying to self-correct, and this whole idea of being forced to speak too soon, and the resulting mistakes that get cemented into your mind, isn't anywhere near as sever for such a student. Maybe it is a problem for the 'unmotivated immigrant' that is the only example cited in Antimoon's article, but not for someone who is always trying to improve their own language ability.

QuackingShoe Wrote:You can only be racist toward races, interestingly enough.

"I'm not racist, I hate all stupid people."

A timeless quote I will never forget.

Could someone explain to me why accents are bad? As long they don't interfere with comprehension, I quite like them. What am I missing?

Thora Wrote:Could someone explain to me why accents are bad? As long they don't interfere with comprehension, I quite like them. What am I missing?

They interfere with comprehension.

Seriously. Every single accent in the world has someone who is unable to easily understand it. I've heard that in the case of Japanese, people from Japan aren't used to foreign accents and will actually just give up rather than try to understand. (Obviously, not -everyone-... But enough to generalize.)

If you want to be understood, you should talk like the people you are talking to.

I actually have this bad (good?) habit. I take on the accent of the person I'm talking to. That means I tend to have a southern drawl around southerners, and I say 'eh' and 'aboot' around Canadians. (Actually, I tend to do that to people with 'no' accent, too.) Sometimes I notice I'm doing it, but then I'm so far into it that I can't stop without insulting them. The longer I'm around them, the stronger it will be. I tend to think this will be a good thing while learning another language.

The Antimoon folks don't just say that one can learn foreign languages in one's own country, they also say that English is the best language to learn. I rather enjoyed reading why: http://www.antimoon.com/other/whylearn.htm Why study Japanese when English skills will ensure that I will be fabulously successful in any career and surrounded by interesting people?

I guess one nice thing about learning a foreign language in a country where it is not the main language is that it makes you more special. If you a non-native speaker of Japanese in Japan, you are surrounded by people who speak Japanese better than you do.

wccrawford Wrote:Every single accent in the world has someone who is unable to easily understand it. I've heard that in the case of Japanese, people from Japan aren't used to foreign accents and will actually just give up rather than try to understand [...]

hmm So, perhaps people learning English don't need to be as concerned about accent because English speakers are more accustomed to hearing foreign accents than Japanese are. I don't have difficulty understanding English spoken with an accent. But perhaps liking it causes me listen more attentively (like your mimicking habit). I guess I see foreign accents more like another variation of English, similar to regional accents.

This reminds me of a friend who studied English in England before moving to Canada because she wanted to learn 'proper' English. In (officially bilingual) Canada, we learn French French in school, not Quebecois French. How aboot that, eh?

Pronunciation trivia: Apparently babies are born with ability to hear all sounds, but gradually lose the ability to hear the sounds not found in their language. So when learners have difficulty making some foreign sounds, it's not only that their mouth muscles haven't figured it out yet, but also that they can't hear them. The ability to hear or differentiate the sounds has to be relearned. L and R for Japanese was one of the examples given. (Another benefit of early listening input I suppose)

I actually agree with Antimoon on that. If you don't know English and plan to learn a language, make that language English. My native tongue isn't English, I don't even like English as a language. However, one has to be realistic. English gets you places no other language can.

Tobberoth Wrote:I don't even like English as a language. However, one has to be realistic. English gets you places no other language can.

Indeed. Antimoon reminds us that English make you smart and "If you are a smart man, women will like you, even if you are not good looking." And girls will be impressed and you will feel admired and loved: "She gave me a big kiss and something more..."

From English feels good. I'm not sure if they are creepy or sweet.

Thora Wrote:hmm So, perhaps people learning English don't need to be as concerned about accent because English speakers are more accustomed to hearing foreign accents than Japanese are. I don't have difficulty understanding English spoken with an accent. But perhaps liking it causes me listen more attentively (like your mimicking habit). I guess I see foreign accents more like another variation of English, similar to regional accents.

This reminds me of a friend who studied English in England before moving to Canada because she wanted to learn 'proper' English. In (officially bilingual) Canada, we learn French French in school, not Quebecois French. How aboot that, eh?

Pronunciation trivia: Apparently babies are born with ability to hear all sounds, but gradually lose the ability to hear the sounds not found in their language. So when learners have difficulty making some foreign sounds, it's not only that their mouth muscles haven't figured it out yet, but also that they can't hear them. The ability to hear or differentiate the sounds has to be relearned. L and R for Japanese was one of the examples given. (Another benefit of early listening input I suppose)

Well, 'need' is relative. If you want everyone to understand you, you need to work on pronunciation no matter the language.

But yes, the conclusion was that English speakers are more used to accents and are more willing to try to understand you than Japanese native speakers are, mainly due to exposure.

I've also heard that about pronunciation. They even did a study where they exposed a child to Chinese sounds that English speakers can't differentiate, and the child grew up able to differentiate them.

In a related study, people can't tell the difference between the faces of cats (and other non-human animals) because we have trained out brain to ignore those differences.

The human mind is very, very complex.

In other words, our brains train themselves to filter out differences we don't need. I imagine this is for speed. If we could train computers for this...

Thora Wrote:..Antimoon reminds us that English make you smart and "If you are a smart man, women will like you, even if you are not good looking."

Good grief, what utter tosh.

wccrawford Wrote:They even did a study where they exposed a child to Chinese sounds that English speakers can't differentiate, and the child grew up able to differentiate them.

I agree with this, with an addendum, of course. When I first started hanging around Cantonese speakers (In my early 20s, Chinese GF and living in Hong Kong) there were lots of sounds in the language that I couldn't distinguish. People would repeat them one after the other and they sounded identical. However, that changed over time. Every once in a while you would get that "Ah ha..." moment, and suddenly you could hear the differences, and you wondered how you had ever confused the sounds before, they were so distinct. Eventually, all the sounds in the language fell into place. Now, I find Cantonese a very easy language to hear, tones and all. I'm far from fluent, but if anyone tells me a word, I'm able to repeat it back correctly the first time, which often shocks people who don't know me.
So the moral is, just giver, eh.

timcampbell Wrote:Every once in a while you would get that "Ah ha..." moment, and suddenly you could hear the differences, and you wondered how you had ever confused the sounds before, they were so distinct.

That's good to hear! That same study I read said that adults couldn't learn to hear it, but I'm always doubtful when someone says a human 'can't learn' something.