So what's the point of this thread again? To say that people who think you can't be immersed outside a country are wrong, and that being in a foreign country doesn't mean you'll automatically get fluent? Of course that's correct. Who's saying it isn't? I'll fight them right now! ;p

I also think it's correct to say that if two magically hypothetically equal people use the same self-study method, except that one is in a foreign country and has access to richer and more accessible resources and actually uses them constantly, then the person living in the target language's country will outpace the person virtualizing their immersion, if you also magically hypothetically standardize a measurement to use for their 'pace'.

But of course, all things aren't equal, it's just an overanalyzed bit of text on a webpage, people have different goals and capitalize on resources differently; they have different situations that influence them each day, and it's far more useful for people who are choosing not to study abroad to figure out ways to continue duplicating that kind of immersion if they're really so obsessed with it.

Forget about geography, just think about what it is in that climate that you want, and figure out how to get it and use it. Why bother trying to compete against these mythical doppelgangers who are mocking you from overseas or whatever, copying your every move except they're harder, better, faster, stronger.

Then again, if you have the means move to Japan, without it significally changing your ability to self-study, and want to do so, I'm sure that'd be awesome too.

Enjuku Wrote:To assume that just by living in a foreign country suddenly saps you of all motivation to learn that country's language is a very strange assumption.

*--While going to another country may seem like a sure-fire way to master a foreign language, it is not so. Without sufficient motivation, you will learn very little and are likely to end up speaking in an understandable way, but with lots of mistakes. On the other hand, if you have the motivation, you might as well simulate a foreign-language environment in your own home with foreign-language TV and the Internet.--*

Sorry, but it seems you are the one making the assumptions. It's like you are reading more than what is there. Damn, now I'm making assumptions. This stuffs contagious.

nest0r Wrote:So what's the point of this thread again? To say that people who think you can't be immersed outside a country are wrong, and that being in a foreign country doesn't mean you'll automatically get fluent? Of course that's correct. Who's saying it isn't? I'll fight them right now! ;p

I also think it's correct to say that if two magically hypothetically equal people use the same self-study method, except that one is in a foreign country and has access to richer and more accessible resources and actually uses them constantly, then the person living in the target language's country will outpace the person virtualizing their immersion, if you also magically hypothetically standardize a measurement to use for their 'pace'.

But of course, all things aren't equal, it's just an overanalyzed bit of text on a webpage, people have different goals and capitalize on resources differently; they have different situations that influence them each day, and it's far more useful for people who are choosing not to study abroad to figure out ways to continue duplicating that kind of immersion if they're really so obsessed with it.

Forget about geography, just think about what it is in that climate that you want, and figure out how to get it and use it. Why bother trying to compete against these mythical doppelgangers who are mocking you from overseas or whatever, copying your every move except they're harder, better, faster, stronger.

Then again, if you have the means move to Japan, without it significally changing your ability to self-study, and want to do so, I'm sure that'd be awesome too.

I totally disagree. You bring up a fact pertinent to the point you are trying to get across but not a fact that you actually did bring up, but suggested a more prudent alternative to.

I confused. @_@

nest0r Wrote:Why bother trying to compete against these mythical doppelgangers who are mocking you from overseas or whatever, copying your every move except they're harder, better, faster, stronger.

It's like Captain Ivan Drago.

Um, I may be dating myself, there...

kazelee Wrote:Sorry, but it seems you are the one making the assumptions. It's like you are reading more than what is there. Damn, now I'm making assumptions. This stuffs contagious.

No, I think I'm reading what isn't there. Or something.

Actually, my point is that the argument is constructed in a one-sided way. The only examples we are provided with are ones where immigrants living abroad have no motivation. Why doesn't Antimoon discuss how a motivated immigrant would compare to someone studying in their home country? This failure to mention what seems like a pertinant point leaves me suspicious of the author's intentions.

Especially when said author has a product they would like to sell you.

EnjukuBlack Wrote:Actually, my point is that the argument is constructed in a one-sided way. The only examples we are provided with are ones where immigrants living abroad have no motivation. Why doesn't Antimoon discuss how a motivated immigrant would compare to someone studying in their home country? This failure to mention what seems like a pertinant point leaves me suspicious of the author's intentions.

Especially when said author has a product they would like to sell you.

Now I understand. Thanks for clearing that up.

*attempts to log out*

*clicks index instead*

kazelee Wrote:*attempts to log out*

*clicks index instead*

Oh. My. God. That happens to me all the time!

Erubey Wrote:I mean, the thread title wasn't even proven to be false by any of the posts, even the first. You can immerse yourself all you want at home, but if you did all this immersion AND lived in Japan would it not be better?

That's irrelevant. If going to the country were the best way to learn the language, then if you had the opportunity to, starting from zero, do precisely one thing, you would want to go to the country. This in contrast to, say, immersion of any kind or any actual expenditure of effort.

EnjukuBlack Wrote:But my point was (at least supposed to be) that a motivated student in-country is very different from the unmotivated immigrants referenced in Antimoon's argument. He doesn't even discuss a 'motivated, in-country student' scenario.

But then you're arguing against something completely different from what Antimoon is saying, while also admitting that their point is true! You yourself place motivation as more important than location!

~J

woodwojr Wrote:

EnjukuBlack Wrote:But my point was (at least supposed to be) that a motivated student in-country is very different from the unmotivated immigrants referenced in Antimoon's argument. He doesn't even discuss a 'motivated, in-country student' scenario.

But then you're arguing against something completely different from what Antimoon is saying, while also admitting that their point is true! You yourself place motivation as more important than location!

~J

Since when was their point that motivation is more important than location? If that were the case, would the truth (in contrast to the myth) be "The best way to learn a foreign language is to be motivated"? That wouldn't make any sense. Their point is that it's better to stay immersed at home than to stay immersed in Japan. That point is incorrect.

When they said "the best way". If another way, like motivation, is better, then location isn't the best way.

The truth, in contrast to the myth, would be "there exists at least one way to learn a language that is better than just going to a country where that language is used."

~J

I'm not sure I really get the point of this argument, but for what it's worth... if you are lucky enough to have the opportunity to go to the country of your target language why would you not? I mean, what's the point in learning the language in the first place if you don't want to experience it first hand, in real life?

A few years back, after many years of learning French I decided to spend a year in Paris and it was honestly the best experience of my life. I loved being there in the midst of this language and culture that I had spent so long thinking about in theory. It did more for my French then any amount of hours with my books. I've only just started my Japanese journey, but I already can't wait to get there and start living the language!

woodwojr Wrote:When they said "the best way". If another way, like motivation, is better, then location isn't the best way.

The truth, in contrast to the myth, would be "there exists at least one way to learn a language that is better than just going to a country where that language is used."

~J

Motivation isn't a way to learn a language. Motivation is a driving factor and what makes you decide to learn a language in the first place. Being in Japan does in no way exclude motivation. If you're motivated to learn a language, the most effective thing you can do is to start off is to go to Japan. Being motivated in Japan > being motivated at home. If you're not motivated, you're not going to learn the language anyway so the whole point is moot.

So no, there exists no way to learn a language that is better than going to a country where the language is used. There exists good ways (being immersed in your home country instead) but they aren't as good and effective for the motivated learner.

Ok, replace "motivation" with essentially any kind of active study.

~J

I'm not involved in the semantics argument.

I can see that, without motivation, nothing will happen by moving to the country outside the bare necessities. With motivation, a lot can happen. With motivation and resources, even more can happen. Moving to a country is a resource, and one would be a fool if all else not withstanding, to not take the chance.

If I were to reword the "myth", it would be "I can't get good at X language since I don't live in the country". Good being the keyword here. Yes, I have heard people say this.

Now, can one become good at the language without moving to a country that speaks it as the dominant language? If so, then that myth is busted.

Don't confuse the "best" way with the "only" way. Nor is the "not best" way ineffective.

woodwojr Wrote:Ok, replace "motivation" with essentially any kind of active study.

~J

Yes but as we've covered in several topics already, that isn't what antimoon is talking about. Everyone, on all sides of this discussion, has agreed that simply being somewhere doesn't make you good at something. The myth however isn't "Being in Japan automatically makes you good at Japanese". The myth concerns whether or not it's better to study at home instead of in Japan. I mean, just check this quote from the antimoon article: "learning in your own country will be a safer (and cheaper) option than going abroad".

But it's the first bloody sentence! "A lot of people seem to think that being in a foreign country means that you automatically learn the country's language well."

~J

So Tobberoth, I'm in the US military, have a wife and one child. Is it better for me to study in Japan or in Africa. I'm under orders to be in Africa for a year, so the option to study in Japan would mean a desertion status if that helps in the discussion of which option is best for me.

Using the term "best" is loaded and opens everything up for semantic debate. It's even worse as people mistake "best" with "only" for some gods awful psychological reason. Even the term "better" which this thing got morphed into is loaded. We are all going to have different situations that make one option better than the other.

It's times like these that I answer "either... or... " questions with an arrogant "yes".

Motivation and resources. Hmm, sounds like that old saw "Where there's a will, there's a way".

Nukemarine Wrote:So Tobberoth, I'm in the US military, have a wife and one child. Is it better for me to study in Japan or in Africa. I'm under orders to be in Africa for a year, so the option to study in Japan would mean a desertion status if that helps in the discussion of which option is best for me.

For your Japanese studies, studying in Japan is best. For your life as a whole, Africa is best. No need to make it any more complicated than it is.

woodwojr Wrote:But it's the first bloody sentence! "A lot of people seem to think that being in a foreign country means that you automatically learn the country's language well."

~J

Regardless of that one sentence, their text as a whole implies constantly that learning a country in-country is less effective than outside of it. For example, try reading all of the bold sentences in the article.

And again, even if that was their point from the start, that just means the myth is badly worded. Again, it should have been "Living in a country automatically makes you good at it", or like Nukemarine said "The only way to become good at a language is to live there" though that's sort of a different discussion.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:So Tobberoth, I'm in the US military, have a wife and one child. Is it better for me to study in Japan or in Africa. I'm under orders to be in Africa for a year, so the option to study in Japan would mean a desertion status if that helps in the discussion of which option is best for me.

For your Japanese studies, studying in Japan is best. For your life as a whole, Africa is best. No need to make it any more complicated than it is.

This is kind of silly for you to say, Tobberoth... Nukemarine, by describing reality, isn't making things more complicated than they are. That's how they are, that's the baseline. You're oversimplifying this ideal of the 'motivated learner', which can be useful for discussing language-learning, but not in this case.

There is no 'best', unless you're ignoring the reality of people living different lives in order to describe an ideal state for learning Japanese, ie stripping away 'learning Japanese' from 'living your life' in order to make a statement like 'studying in Japan is best for learning Japanese'. Even then, it's not studying in Japan that makes it superior, it's the availability of resources that comes with living in Japan. There are qualifications, in other words, that are more conducive to useful discourse than staticizing present Japan as the mecca for Japanese-learning as long as you're motivated.

The availability of resources is constantly improving, and when you combine this awareness with real life and the genuine variations in learners, you can form better ideals to have a discussion about, such as how to continue improving the availability of resources to learners, regardless of location, pinpointing the pros and cons of different methods and materials. Exploring the underlying mechanisms of action, in other words, and extrapolating these in such a way that learners can apply them to themselves based on their actual lives.

tokyostyle Wrote:How about some gas for this fire:

I find it cheaper to learn Japanese in Japan.

Well, I'm a pirate, so. ^_^

The large majority of people that emigrate to other countries do so for economic reasons: job oportunities, higher salaries, etc. Many immigrants don't even plan to stay in the country permanently, but end up doing so contrary to their expectations: they might get married, or the situation in their home countries has worsened, etc.

Therefore, many people don't go to another country to learn a language. They just learn the survival basic, and don't bother with the rest. Of course, that is an almost outrageous thing to consider in a forum where we are all concerned with learning a language as best as possible. The reality is, many people who travel to Japan do so for reasons other than learning a language, and therefore do not learn it well.
I have a friend who did a student exchange program in Japan for 6 whole months at university and she came back knowing zero. The pressures of doing university research in an environment that is english-friendly can seriously hamper any progress in Japanese language. She then returned recently to Japan to do a master's thesis, but once again, she is focusing on getting the job done, not on learning the language. I know of a Mexican who has been living in Japan for 10 years and knows practically nothing of the language, and actually believes that it is better to not know it, since he will benefit from "gaijin power" or something like that.

Such a concept (of living like an illiterate in a foreign land) is absurd to me, but I sure see a lot of people doing it.

Conclusion: The original poster's point is that success in mastering the Japanese language is solely due to MOTIVATION. A motivated student will triumph regardless of whether he/she is living in the target country or not. I have never been in the U.S or England but I read PHd's written in English with absolute ease. This is because I have used the language on a daily basis ever since I was a kid.

Second point: just going to another country will not do the trick by itself, unless you have the motivation. Motivation, basically, is the secret "X" ingredient without which things will not work, or work badly. If motivation exists, then going to another country will speed things up considerably.

I know japanese people who came to my country to learn my language (portuguese) and yet most of the time they just hang out with other foreign students and talk in English, basically making little or no progress at all, despite having been here for 6 months or more. Their shyness (and the ready availability of other foreign students) is the biggest obstacle to making native friends, and socializing.

nest0r Wrote:

tokyostyle Wrote:How about some gas for this fire:

I find it cheaper to learn Japanese in Japan.

Well, I'm a pirate, so. ^_^

How do you manage to immerse yourself in Japanese while on the high seas?

He raids fishing fleets?

nest0r Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:So Tobberoth, I'm in the US military, have a wife and one child. Is it better for me to study in Japan or in Africa. I'm under orders to be in Africa for a year, so the option to study in Japan would mean a desertion status if that helps in the discussion of which option is best for me.

For your Japanese studies, studying in Japan is best. For your life as a whole, Africa is best. No need to make it any more complicated than it is.

This is kind of silly for you to say, Tobberoth... Nukemarine, by describing reality, isn't making things more complicated than they are. That's how they are, that's the baseline. You're oversimplifying this ideal of the 'motivated learner', which can be useful for discussing language-learning, but not in this case.

Not at all, it's a perfectly valid simplification. We are talking about generalization. To eat a soup, it's better to use a spoon than a fork. You not having any spoon doesn't make any difference, it's still better to use a spoon. Same with Japanese. Just because you don't have the means to go there doesn't change that it's more effective to learn Japanese in Japan than outside of Japan.

If you have a choice, it's better. If you don't, it's still better, you just don't have the option.

Tobberoth Wrote:Not at all, it's a perfectly valid simplification. We are talking about generalization. To eat a soup, it's better to use a spoon than a fork. You not having any spoon doesn't make any difference, it's still better to use a spoon. Same with Japanese. Just because you don't have the means to go there doesn't change that it's more effective to learn Japanese in Japan than outside of Japan.

If you have a choice, it's better. If you don't, it's still better, you just don't have the option.

Even if your entire country didn't have spoons and you'd have to fly halfway around the world to get one, eating soup is -still- easier with a spoon. When speaking to a group of people, the special circumstances of one person in that group don't enter into it.

If instead they had said "In forkland, it's easier to eat soup with a spoon than a fork" then it would be different.

"Perhaps the most prominent people who believe in this "common-sense truth" are European parents who pay a lot of money to send their children to language schools in England, expecting that they will come back speaking fluent English."

"Most immigrants in America don't speak English very well, even after living there for 20 years. Many of them have been making the same basic mistakes for decades — for example, saying things like "He make tea?" instead of "Did he make tea?" or "I help you" instead of "I will help you". They typically speak with strong accents, which enables others to instantly classify them as Asians, Latinos, Russians, etc."

Let me guess: You are an American (US).

Living in Europe all my life, I haven't heard once about European parents who pay a lot of money to send their children to language schools in England. Perhaps Japanese parents would be a better example. Have you got any idea how many Europeans speak multible languages easily, including English? European parents would never pay a lot of money to send their kids to study English. Actually in most European countries education is quite inexpensive to start with. People from the US (and Japan BTW too) are the ones who pay a lot. And they are generally the ones who speak the least languages. The immigrants are actually the exception here, speaking at least 2 languages to make a living, so maybe you could learn a few things from these from Asians, Latinos, Russians, etc.

The rest of your post was mainly bull too, but I don't have time for that.