For the first time I went and checked out some other forums to see what they were like. I've seen many people say this is a civilized forum and most people tend to respect other people's opinions and what not and it peaked my interest.

I saw some of the most ridiculous arguments and opinions of Japan and Japanese people that I was thinking "Do people really think these things?"

Most of the complaining was done by people who actually live in Japan and are tired of "racist Japanese" people and being asked "Do you like sushi?" and the supposed different(demeaning) treatment that foreigners receive in Japan.

I just wanted to share my thoughts on this and how culture shock may be the cause.

I personally live in Japan and went through 2 months of the "low point" of the culture shock cycle. This culminated one day when I thought Japanese people were too stupid to figure out which side of the escalator to wait on. I even said it out loud.

That was my lowest point ever and shortly after that I found RTK/AJATT etc. and everything flipped to rainbows, sunshine, and Japanese bikini models flocking to me because of my mediocre Japanese

Anyway, having this limited experience, I assume that others making these outlandish claims at other forums are either at a low point, feel no purpose in Japan, are trying too hard to change Japan when they in fact need to change.

Any feedback or experiences from others living in Japan is quite welcome.

When I went to Japan I had 0 cultureshock. I think it was probably because I already knew some people in the city I moved to and I was already independent from my family. I also knew enough Japanese to get by by myself. A lot of cultureshock is more loneliness than anything else I think.

Returning to Canada gives me cultureshock though. "Wow everyone dresses so poorly and are rude and fat"

Jarvik7 Wrote:Returning to Canada gives me cultureshock though. "Wow everyone dresses so poorly and are rude and fat"

LOL I had the same reverse culture shock when I returned to Canada (but mine was worse because my entry point to North America was Minneapolis airport, full of very large corn-fed midwesterners with man-breasts and white runners, sad to say---no offence to Minnesotans intended; offence intended instead to all large North Americans ;-)

Anyway...my observations of culture shock

1-3 months hey, cool, everything's different
3-4 months other foreigners tell me things are weird
5 months it is weird; Japanese are strange and frustrating
6-8 months let the japan-bashing begin!!!
9-11 months getting tired of bashing; seen and heard every bash
12 months acceptance and moving on...
following years...blissful curiosity

I've lived here 3 years and a few of the things you mentioned still apply. It's not culture shock, but rather the fact that a lot of things that are common sense in the Western world (you can walk on polished wooden floors with your regular shoes without irreparably damaging them, you actually get more done the less time you spend at work, etc. etc. etc.) have yet to permeate Japanese society. That, coupled with the humor differences and the creativity gulf, creates an environment that doesn't shock, but instead simply disappoints most people who come over here.

Let's not kid ourselves-- it's the upper, not the lower crust, that typically move to Japan (from first world countries, anyway); they have money and brains and it's easy for people like that to look at the typical Japanese person who has few or no hobbies, spends inordinate amounts of time working (often to the point of living separated from their family), living with a sense of humor that's based on laughing at things that "sound different" and bonks on the head, and have a lot of complaints.

I'm not going to tell you that the people I work with are awesome and interesting. Most of them aren't. They work too much, are always stressed out, and spend 0% of the time using their imagination or creativity to do anything. The most interesting people I know are someone I rarely see who's watching LOST in Japanese and someone I work with once a week who is as liberal here as a typical foreigner and has no problem discussing things no-nonsense with me. That doesn't mean I don't have friends-- in fact, I'm not sure if I'd even call those people friends. They are quite simply, the most interesting people I know. However, the people that I do call friends here are almost universally dull. I like sitting around shooting the shit about the workday with them, or discussing the kind of fish or sake we're drinking, or singing karaoke, but honestly, there's very little that is unique about them.

I'll even go as far as to say that my girlfriend (who, again, I nonetheless enjoying spending time with) is not exactly unique in the scheme of things here. She doesn't really have any hobbies, spends most of her time studying for her future career, and doesn't seem to be especially creative or interesting as far as I can tell. Even getting her to talk about her favorite movies or television shows can be a pain in the ass because it's like pulling teeth.

Learning the language (and spending time here) has improved my situation. It's true. There are so many more layers of nuance even with a mediocre grasp of the language, (I'm about JLPT 2 level right now) but even keeping that in mind, there are some things, mostly the things that I've touched on in this post that don't change. I understand them better now-- I understand that they haven't changed, and that they won't any time soon.

I got an extreme shock when I moved from Detroit to Virginia. It was like being transported out of Robocop and into an episode of 7th Heaven, but with a higher teen pregnancy rate. Strange and random people would just walk up and say "Hello, will you be my friend?" Even more shocking, they smiled... without ever punching you in the face. :O

Who the f@#$ are you and why the f#$% are you talking to me? Why the f@#$ are you smiling so damned much? Where are the all mutha f#$%ing guns shots... the police sirens? No, I've never been shot before. Yes I do know people who have been shot. Why the hell is it so quiet at night? The grass is actually... green. The air clear...kinda. You're moms makin brownies? You didn't seriously just say you were going to run away from home, did you? Why the f@#$ is this teacher talking to me so mutha @#$#ing slowly? Is it because I'm black? WTF? You @#$%ing @#$% my IQ is prally twice yours? Wait a minute, they're all talking slowly. Why didn't I notice they were talking so got damn slow. Why the f#$% don't these people talk faster? Yes, Remember the Titans was a dumb f#$%ing moving. No, I won't say ASK, damn it. AKS AKS AKS!!! Correct me not beyotch!!!

と Random thought and conversations went.

When I moved to Florida it was like I finally found some sane middle ground.

I can only imagine what the Japan has in store for oh so different me should I choose to actually go there. I hear the Japan has xenophobic. I see the Japan goes misunderstood. I hopes it's the latter.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Returning to Canada gives me cultureshock though. "Wow everyone dresses so poorly and are rude and fat"

Same here when I returned to NZ
everybody here is a fatass ( by "everyone" I mean 1/5 people ) but still and I couldn't get around properly because we have SHIT public transport in New Zealand
and I mean absolutely shit because Auckland is the most populated city in NZ and it's only got 1000 000 people, mostly this is good but when it comes to maintaining an efficient infrastructure it amounts to shit public transport and inefficient waste disposal
plus the idiots in this country have just elected a right wing scum prime minister who wont do a thing to help public transport

Haha, when I moved from Canada to Texas for awhile it was much bigger culture shock than Japan. I totally understand the slow talking bit. I actually got pretty impatient and frustrated waiting for them to get the damn words out of their mouths That, and I didn't understand a lot of the local "dialect" and culture. What does "fixin' to" mean? What does "beating on your desk" mean and why am I not allowed to do it? etc.

Canada and America's cultures are a lot more different than people normally think, but Texas might as well have been mars.

And if you think Japan is xenophobic? Try Texas. They even discriminate against white middle class Canadians.

A plus side of everyone in Canada dressing so poorly is that suddenly I'm stylish since most of my clothes are from Japan.

You guys talking about how annoying it is when people talk too slowly should come to New Zealand. According to an official language survey we're the fastest speakers of English in the world. I get annoyed at american actors in movies and on tv for talking to bloody slowly

Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:You guys talking about how annoying it is when people talk too slowly should come to New Zealand. According to an official language survey we're the fastest speakers of English in the world. I get annoyed at american actors in movies and on tv for talking to bloody slowly

I'm pretty 早口.. I have to deliberately slow down my speech when I talk to Americans and western Canadians or they won't understand me. (was raised in Ottawa)

Jarvik7 Wrote:Haha, when I moved from Canada to Texas for awhile it was much bigger culture shock than Japan. I totally understand the slow talking bit. I actually got pretty impatient and frustrated waiting for them to get the damn words out of their mouthes That, and I didn't understand a lot of the local "dialect" and culture. What does "fixin' to" mean? What does "beating on your desk" mean and why am I not allowed to do it? etc.

Canada and America's cultures are a lot more different than people normally think, but Texas might as well have been mars.

And if you think Japan is xenophobic? Try Texas. They even discriminate against white middle class Canadians.

A plus side of everyone in Canada dressing so poorly is that suddenly I'm stylish since most of my clothes are from Japan.

Oh man, Texas, well, my part of it, is great. Bringing back memories there Jarkvik. =D

And I'd call the area around El Paso, Texas anything but Xenophobic-- a; A Texan can be a real dick if he/she needs to be, but generally we're as friendly as sweet grass to a buffalo.

Eh. Everyone responds to living in a strange environment completely. And from my own personal experience, it's not necessarily something that you really get over. It comes in cycles.... everything will be fine, but occasionally you hit a stretch where you wake up every morning and you absolutely hate Japan. People I know who have been here for a long time (10+ years) still have bouts with it.

From my personal experience, and in dealing with my fellow ALTs, many of us seem to go really bitter about living in Japan at this time of year. I don't know if it's burn out at work or the weather or what... but we're typically a lot cheerier once it warms up a bit outside (and raises the temp. in our apartments above the temp of a meat locker ) and the sakura are out.

I'll say some of it probably just does come from being at a low point... and everyone vents the frustration in different ways. Some have it out over a few beers with friends, others bitch about it on the internet. And I think you also have to look at what the people are doing here... again, my experience comes from working here as an English teacher... many of us come and have little, if any, formal training in education, and we're thrown into a very highly regarded social institution in Japan (and the one that is sort of charged with teaching the Japanese how to be Japanese), and so you see some things that go completely against all of your cultural training and common sense. So sometimes it's hard to not have moments that are like "WTF? Are these people insane?"

But even with all of that, most people I know do really enjoy living here and the quirks that go along with it. But everyone has bad days and everyone needs to vent about the stuff that bothers them. And I know I personally have gone off and said things about my coworkers and the people around me that I don't necessarily mean when I'm having an off day.

Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:You guys talking about how annoying it is when people talk too slowly should come to New Zealand. According to an official language survey we're the fastest speakers of English in the world. I get annoyed at american actors in movies and on tv for talking to bloody slowly

Strange, as for US English, I always considered speaking fast to be a feminine trait. Though I don't think it sounds as bad in other dialects (Aus, British, etc).

I've talked to many Canadians and understand their English perfectly. Then again, we're in Japan so maybe their has de-evolved into da Engrish we a usin in a Japan.

stehr Wrote:

Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:You guys talking about how annoying it is when people talk too slowly should come to New Zealand. According to an official language survey we're the fastest speakers of English in the world. I get annoyed at american actors in movies and on tv for talking to bloody slowly

Strange, as for US English, I always considered speaking fast to be a feminine trait. Though I don't think it sounds as bad in other dialects (Aus, British, etc).

I think the femininity comes from persons patterns and intonation rather than speed. There are many theories about personality types and speech rate. Some paint fairly accurate pictures of the individuals speaking, others might as well be phrenology.

theasianpleaser Wrote:I've talked to many Canadians and understand their English perfectly. Then again, we're in Japan so maybe their has de-evolved into da Engrish we a usin in a Japan.

Canadian English has various dialects & accents. Try Newfoundland-English on for size. (no I'm not a newfie)

For those who don't know and are too lazy to find a video, think of Brad Pitt in snatch, but with a lot of words that don't exist in "normal" English.

theasianpleaser Wrote:This culminated one day when I thought Japanese people were too stupid to figure out which side of the escalator to wait on. I even said it out loud.

Are you an impatient fellow? Calm, down, grope a girl while you're at it ^_^

I feel the same no matter where I go. I am one with the universe.

Or maybe you just don't fit in ANYWHERE ;P

Jarvik7 Wrote:Canada and America's cultures are a lot more different than people normally think, but Texas might as well have been mars.

Well it's all relative. Canada and America's cultures may be different but relative to what? Brazil and Portugal are more different. Scotland and England are more different. British Columbia is more similar culturally to Washington state than Virginia is. How similar is Newfoundland to British Columbia let alone Québec? Culture to me implies good food. Where can I find that?

A lot more different in that a lot of people (both Canadians and Americans) think that there is essentially no difference, while in reality Canada is a lot closer to just about any EURO country (English speaking or not) than it is to America.

I think it is due to people overestimating the importance of pop culture as a part of culture as a whole. If you limit the scope to just pop culture, then Canada and America are virtually the same (Canadian tv is all awful and anyone with any real entertaining talent moves to the states to make the big money, so Canadian cultural media output has virtually no influence).

(I was talking about Canadian culture as a whole. If you want to split it up, the provincial boundaries are largely meaningless because each province is so large. For example Victoria is essentially Little-England, while Vancouver, only a small number of km away (albeit separated by water), is much more Californian.)

shneen Wrote:But even with all of that, most people I know do really enjoy living here and the quirks that go along with it. But everyone has bad days and everyone needs to vent about the stuff that bothers them. And I know I personally have gone off and said things about my coworkers and the people around me that I don't necessarily mean when I'm having an off day.

You've said it, I've lived in a very different society and culture for 9 months when I studied in a university in the southern part of my country, it was like hell!, but you know why? for 2 reasons, first one is I had a big chance to transfer to a better and closer uni, and the second one is I didn't want to cope with it!! (I didn't want to live a different cultural life, but in the cas of Japan, I do.)

I think that people who think toward things in a positive way get by easily, so ppl who think "Japanese are different (and maybe weird) , they hate foreigners, their food..." ,which might not be true at all and taken from bad sources or a bad first experience, will have a very bad life, where others who think in a good way and take bad experiences as experiences that make them better ppl will live a way better and happier life, I made it a long paragraph, but I hope I got my point understood.

I read about that "racist japanese" ppl issue two weeks ago and I was very shocked but I noticed how people's opinions differed, what I thought is even if it's true, it should be a good experience for me and it shouldn't stop me from working in the motherland of Mechatronics

I always thought one of the least expected benefits of living in Japan was the light it cast on the culture I came from.

It was so very important for us North Americans as teachers to get our Japanese students to "express their individual opinions", and not to defer to the oldest person in the class, etc. How could they be such sheep? In the staff-room we Western teachers all had wonderful debates and arguments and every N. American had an opinion. It was always about our opinions, my opinion this, to my mind this, etc., etc., ad nauseum ad infinitum. Most of our so-called opinions were uninformed and frankly just "shite," but we all put great stock in them because they were ours and we were individuals, and individuals have rights and are the basis of everything blah blah blah...

...BUT those opinions meant absolutely zero in a society where the basis of organization is the group and not the individual. As I began to understand this, I then began to understand how so many Japanese were capable of such acts of great self-sacrifice, giving up personal dreams for the sake of their siblings, spouses and in-laws, etc. That really uninteresting lady in my afternoon class who had no opinions or hobbies or interests or anything unique or individual about her was going home and changing her mother-in-law's diaper and then bathing her and reading to her. It was humbling. It made us all look like a bunch of selfish opinionated boors who were incapable of seeing beyond our own self-interest. We were certainly more "interesting" but also less noble.

Wow, I DO go on sometimes...sorry 'bout that...please return to the discussion already in progress :-)

P.S. If you can find it a great book on the subject of group education is "Japanese Lessons." I forget the author.

Ji_suss Wrote:It made us all look like a bunch of selfish opinionated boors who were incapable of seeing beyond our own self-interest. We were certainly more "interesting" but also less noble.

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I think something in between is the best, right?
What about a self-dream that serves the good of everybody? that's a good one

Ji_suss Wrote:As I began to understand this, I then began to understand how so many Japanese were capable of such acts of great self-sacrifice, giving up personal dreams for the sake of their siblings, spouses and in-laws, etc. ... It was humbling. It made us all look like a bunch of selfish opinionated boors who were incapable of seeing beyond our own self-interest. We were certainly more "interesting" but also less noble.

That was a really insightful post, Ji_suss. I wish more of us could have that same realisation.

Ji_suss Wrote:...BUT those opinions meant absolutely zero in a society where the basis of organization is the group and not the individual. As I began to understand this, I then began to understand how so many Japanese were capable of such acts of great self-sacrifice, giving up personal dreams for the sake of their siblings, spouses and in-laws, etc. That really uninteresting lady in my afternoon class who had no opinions or hobbies or interests or anything unique or individual about her was going home and changing her mother-in-law's diaper and then bathing her and reading to her. It was humbling. It made us all look like a bunch of selfish opinionated boors who were incapable of seeing beyond our own self-interest. We were certainly more "interesting" but also less noble...

While your individual example may pull at someone's heartstrings, I can name any number of people in the USA (for instance-- it's where I'm from so I have a rich body of examples to pull from) who do the same thing AND manage to have their own hobbies, interests, ideas and opinions.

Is it noble to move away from your family in order to teach math/english/whatever to kids who don't give a shit at the expense of your own child's development. At the expensive of living out your own life?

The reason this sort of thing blows my mind is that, for instance, my mom was a teacher, but she didn't have to spend every waking moment at school and forgo any and all personal interests, desires etc. in order to perform her role in society. When I was in college, I didn't have to study constantly, 24hrs. a day and forgo my photography, writing, or movie hobbies to graduate with honors and learn a foreign language. My kids find me interesting because I have a girlfriend and speak English and take pictures of them at sports day. Because I travel on the weekends and bring in English newspapers for them to read. Because I have a life outside of my job and because I have favorite foods and opinions on my President and government. Because I'm not constantly stressed out about work-related business.

My rather longwinded point is: you don't have to give up ANY and ALL personality and independence in order to be part of a group.