EnjukuBlack Wrote:Man, all those mistakes I made in English when I was a child - they are all embedded now, and I can never speak proper English again...

Curse those embedded mistakes! :mad:

You forgot about the "magic" factor. What's a child got that an adult don't. That make correcting; errors easier so to do?

Children have majic powers to learning that make was is learnt able to forgetting and much times.

It's becoming more evident that children aren't nearly as magical as was once believed. Either that, or we're just surly and want to tear them down to make ourselves feel better. Those damned little brats.

I'm not where this embedded idea came from, but I'm certain if you keep typying like this, to make a joke, something might stick sooner or later. LOL.

The only things embedded within us are the things that are out of our control. And even then suicide is an option, but death is embedded as well, no?

@musigny

I think it'd be better to find a word other than embedded to describe what happens. It's hard to change, because the desire to change requires a change in personally and habits. The older a person get the less likely they are to make these necessary changes. They have bad habits but they subconsciously choose to have them. They don't see the benefit in investing the extra time on a consistent basic as enough motivation to do so. That is, the reward is not good enough on a conscious or subconscious level.

The individual you used as an example was able to converse enough with you to get the point across. She may "think" that she "should" improve. She may even "try" to improve from time-to-time. She just lacks the needed consistency that comes from doing rather than "thinking about" doing.

Tobberoth Wrote:Common assumption. Untrue assumption.

You missed a word or misunderstood.

Tobberoth Wrote:Speaking is a distinct skill which isn't trained by listening.

Overly simplistic. Baseless.

Tobberoth Wrote:Your knowledge of the language is but that doesn't transfer straight over to speaking ability.

Authoritative, sounds like it's based on some actual research. Overly simplistic. What neurolinguistic study is this based on? "Straight" as if key?! I'm going to have to leave this one alone; the weakest statements you make are the ones you'll go on forever with.

Tobberoth Wrote:Even if you've listened to 10 000 hours of Japanese, you're going to make mistakes when you start speaking it. Just like a beginner who fixes his mistakes, so can the experienced listener.

Someone who listened to 10,000 hours of Japanese, who at the same time was reading, writing and imitating what he was hearing is going to make the same speaking mistakes as someone who is in their first day of Japanese class.

Tobberoth Wrote:If someone knows they are making a mistake yet aren't fixing it (your chinese woman example) that just means that someone doesn't care enough.

Only one cause for them not being able to fix the mistake: they just don't care enough.

musigny Wrote:Overly simplistic. Baseless.

Indeed, just like someone else in this topic. Except it isn't baseless. Take someone who has listened to 5 000 hours of Japanese anime. They can't speak. Point proven. Listening =/= Speaking.

musigny Wrote:Authoritative, sounds like it's based on some actual research. Overly simplistic. What neurolinguistic study is this based on? "Straight" as if key?! I'm going to have to leave this one alone; the weakest statements you make are the ones you'll go on forever with.

I've read my share of articles about active vs passive memory, yes. However I mainly base it on my own experience with students of Japanese coming from a school background to Japan without the ability to speak even if they can both read and write Japanese just fine for their level. What do you base your assumptions on? If it's proper research, I'd love to see it since that would certainly beat my "personal experience card".

musigny Wrote:Someone who listened to 10,000 hours of Japanese, who at the same time was reading, writing and imitating what he was hearing is going to make the same speaking mistakes as someone who is in their first day of Japanese class.

Where did I say they make the same mistakes? I said they make mistakes and they use the same techniques to fix those mistakes. Someone who has listened and imitated enough Japanese can probably hear "ah, I said that wrong" and thus they actively stop doing it. In the same manner, a beginner must understand when they have made a mistake and work to fix it.

musigny Wrote:Only one cause for them not being able to fix the mistake: they just don't care enough.

More or less, yes. You yourself said it's possible to break speaking habits if you put in enough effort. "And of course anything can be undone".

@musigny
While I agree that lots of input is a tremendous way to learn, and that we often force students to speak too much too early, simple input does not equal output.

If we look at the children of immigrants, for example, you will find many who can understand their parents' native language, because they have heard it from the time they were children, but they can't speak it at all, or when they do they have an English accent! I have encountered more people like this than I can count. The children of immigrants who become fluent in both languages actually USE both languages, they don't learn one and then somehow magically produce the other. Just doesn't happen. You can quote all the Internet sources you wish, there's just no connection with observed reality.

I like a lot of Antimoon's ideas, however, they didn't learn English by simple input. They spent years in traditional school, then discovered their methods to refine what they learned. Their theories are simply that, theories.

I do agree with you that forcing students to speak from Day 1 is not necessarily the best idea. It takes time for the brain to get a feel for the sounds and rhythm of a language, and pushing production too early can lead to mistakes that become bad habits. When I learned Cantonese, I got to sit around with my girlfriend's family, or hang out in Hong Kong, and just listen to the language. I was the white guy, so there was no pressure on me to speak. When I eventually started to speak, my pronunciation was surprisingly good. I actually have a Hong Kong accent when I speak Cantonese. However, it wasn't perfect, and I had to work hard at it. The "input" set a solid foundation, but erecting the building, the "spoken language", was still something I needed to do by practicing "output"

@woodwojr
Sure, kids don't always correct their mistakes on the spot.
Child: I seed three mouses.
Parent: You saw three mice?
Child: Yeah, I seed three mouses.
However, they will eventually correct this, as you said, often later, on their own.

Tobberoth Wrote:Indeed, just like someone else in this topic. Except it isn't baseless. Take someone who has listened to 5 000 hours of Japanese anime. They can't speak. Point proven. Listening =/= Speaking.

Just like to point out this is a bad example when taken out of the extreme context (makes sense, no? lol). If you're speaking of anime with subs where the person is reading more than listening this is true. However, if said person were watching raw anime, he or she would acquire a surprisingly good command of anime-style speech should he or she begin to output. Emphasis on everything after should. Output is necessary at some point.

timcampbell Wrote:If we look at the children of immigrants, for example, you will find many who can understand their parents' native language, because they have heard it from the time they were children, but they can't speak it at all, or when they do they have an English accent!

Are you f@#$ing s@#ing me!? :O

Life as I know it has fallen apart once again. Thanks a lot you over-informed, well-intentioned jerk... Excuse me while I go shoot myself in the f@#$ing face.

musigny: I appreciate your detailed explanation - I hope I didn't waste your time. I guess it wasn't obvious that I had taken your Chinese woman story and substituted my facts. Some of the modifications to the story were in anticipation of the Krashen-type arguments. Yet you still responded with more input rhetoric. Language education is such a mixed bag. I don't think we can make such definite statements about the effects of output, mistakes, input, etc.

I was reacting to what I see as unnecessary extremes or concerns based on certain theories. For eg, some learners are concerned that speaking will ruin their Japanese, but have no idea when or how to start.

musigny Wrote:"Living in a foreign country simply does not make you speak the country's language well. It does not force you to learn good grammar, good pronunciation, or a large vocabulary, because you can do quite well without those things in everyday life." - Tomasz

eh? Are you trying to make me the poster girl for the "living in the country in not the best way to learn a language"? ouch Well, I was forced to learn in order b/c I had to use it! 1 more yr language study, 3 yrs Japanese uni, 4 yrs working and a stubborn Japanese sweetheart. Yet I still made mistakes. I just think you're wrong to assume such mistakes are the permament result of premature output. Obviously a lot of input is necessary, but I think the need to postpone speaking is often overstated. None of the fluent people I know followed any strict input order (it would have been much harder to do then).

It sounds like you might be interested in theory. I only have a superficial knowledge, but Swain, et al on the output hypothesis might offer some arguments in support of output. There's also been a lot of research done on this topic in connection with Canada's French immersion schools, if the topic interests you.
[removed some personal info]

Tobberoth Wrote:Take someone who has listened to 5 000 hours of Japanese anime. They can't speak. Point proven. Listening =/= Speaking.

Hmmm... but maybe if they had watched it all without subtitles? Since they are busy reading, they really aren't hearing the Japanese, probably.

I consider my method to be using 'output', amongst other things, in a highly controlled way that's ever-evolving, and I understand that proficiency and fluency in Japanese only comes with the accumulation of information and continuous practice in processing this information in a variety of ways, with a well-developed self-correcting mechanism that relies on accurate feedback as I progress further towards fluency with a high degree of proficiency in all areas of the language, which is my goal. I'm leaving all this vague because I feel I have a solid grip on the logistics of what I'm referring to, that these things are self-evident, and anything else would be nitpicking and is best left to discussing specific strategies and resources elsewhere. Also, I flat out refuse to agree to disagree with anyone on this topic!

kazelee Wrote:

timcampbell Wrote:If we look at the children of immigrants, for example, you will find many who can understand their parents' native language, because they have heard it from the time they were children, but they can't speak it at all, or when they do they have an English accent!

Are you f@#$ing s@#ing me!? :O

Life as I know it has fallen apart once again. Thanks a lot you over-informed, well-intentioned jerk... Excuse me while I go shoot myself in the f@#$ing face.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Even then, it's a touch over the line, no?

My ex-brother-in-law is a case in point. He grew up in Canada. He spoke Cantonese with an English accent. My accent was better than his. There are lots of students at my local exchange school who grew up here. They have Japanese parent(s), can understand the language but only speak it awkwardly, and not with native accents. They're not completely gaijin, but they're not Kansai, either. I don't see what is so strange about this. Native accents aren't passed on in the genes. If kids grow up here speaking English at school and with friends, that becomes their language of reference. If they don't speak the language much as children, they learn it from the perspective of English speakers, and develop foreign accents. It's actually quite common.

And watch the language, dude, we're not in a pub.

I know a good deal of people who can read Japanese novels and currently study Classical Japanese with me now, but can't form sentences at all when trying to speak. Those same people spend much of their time watching dramas and listening to jpop.

Listening != Speaking. Like tobberoth said you can learn accent and pacing that way, but creative thought is something totally different. Everyone just needs to accept that there are 4 parts of language usage, and while they overlap slightly, you still need to practice each one equally from the beginning in order to be balanced. No one studies Japanese for a few years and then thinks "ok, now I'm ready to start trying to speak".

kazelee: Since a good deal of my friends are the children of immigrants, I know MANY people who can't speak much of their language, but can understand their parents. It's called being a heritage speaker in linguistics. My university actually has Chinese courses intended specifically for heritage speakers. I've also got a Japanese friend who was born in Japan and raised here. He can speak good Japanese (a bit higher level than me), but can't write kanji at all even though he can read them fine. You're only good at what you specifically practice.

WTF is the point of all these numbers of hours that people are pulling out of their asses? Even if it wasn't a totally meaningless number that was just pulled out of thin air, so what? Are you going to say "job well done" and never study Japanese ever again once you reach 10,000 hours? Learning has no finish line.

timcampbell: I actually do have these kinds of conversations in pubs

Zarxrax Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Take someone who has listened to 5 000 hours of Japanese anime. They can't speak. Point proven. Listening =/= Speaking.

Hmmm... but maybe if they had watched it all without subtitles? Since they are busy reading, they really aren't hearing the Japanese, probably.

I would guess I hit 5000 hours over about 10 years of watching anime. I could say about 10 words.

To be clear: I wasn't -trying- to learn Japanese and I had never studied any grammar or vocabulary except by watching anime. I naturally learn everything I'm exposed to because I simply love to learn, though.

Hearing it, even with on-screen definitions all the time, was never enough to learn Japanese.

Now that I've started to actively study vocabulary and grammar, I understand a lot more when I'm watching anime and I can read kids' comics and understand about half of what's going on. (For the -really- easy ones, I understand about 3/4.)

Listening only leads to speaking when you understand enough of the conversation to guess what the rest of it means. And even then, it only leads to speaking once you've heard enough to use some standard phrases in certain situations. Later, once you've had a -ton- of exposure, you'll be able to make new phrases as needed.

I'm a little sick of everyone saying there's 1 method that will bring you to fluency in a reasonable amount of time. There's not. You must combine them.

Listening is a great supplement to vocab building, and vocab building leads to better listening. Everything interacts.

Jarvik7 Wrote:timcampbell: I actually do have these kinds of conversations in pubs

I'm stumbling distance from the Dover Arms if you're ever in town

I may very well be in town at some point. Although I'm presently in Edmonton I'm from Victoria. I migrated the wrong way and came here for the winter.

timcampbell Wrote:And watch the language, dude, we're not in a pub.

At the time I typed that (noon), I did have a drink in my hand. Used my toes to hit the other keys.

Quote:WTF is the point of all these numbers of hours that people are pulling out of their asses?

It makes the person feel good.... [can't stop laughing]

I just figured the children would pick of the language from the parents. Come to think of it, I used to be able to understand Spanish. I used to watch a crap ton of Spanish soaps when I was little. After typing that I realize it has nothing to do with what we're discussing, lol. [can't stop laughing]

Sleep deprivation has very strange effects. I wonder if I just wasted my time doing anki reviews todays.

Same here, I have watched hours and hours of anime and have not learned very much Japanese.
However, if you read the first chapter of Genki, and memorize the common phrases they have there, suddenly you can understand more than you used to. These common phrases are really very common, used in most animes.
Another reason you cannot learn from the subtitle is the word order is wrong. You are not hearing the words in the same order as they appear in the subtitle. Also, sometimes the translation uses different words than the equivalent words in Japanese.

My Japanese professor is a native Japanese person. Her English is very good. I can tell she is not a native English speaker - her favorite mistake is to use the singular of a noun when the plural should be used - but it's never difficult to understand her. You can tell she is from Japan just by listening but I wouldn't call it a thick accent. I think her good English comes from living in the USA and working with English speaking students daily.

A guy awhile back mentioned a person that can speak Japanese but not write it (because he cannot write Kanji). I heard somewhere that kanji-writing ability is at its peak when Japanese or Chinese people graduate from college and it goes down from there.

jcdietz03 Wrote:Another reason you cannot learn from the subtitle is the word order is wrong. You are not hearing the words in the same order as they appear in the subtitle. Also, sometimes the translation uses different words than the equivalent words in Japanese.

That's not true, actually. You can learn both vocab and grammar from just listening, -if- you are actively trying to learn from it. The more vocab and grammar you already know, the more you'll understand from a sentence, as well.

The problem with anime subs is that quite often the subs bear very little resemblance to what is actually being said. It could be just wrong, or it could be some subbers attempt to make it sound 'natural'... It doesn't matter why, it's just the case far too often.

Totally off-topic, but I caught one of these in Kiki's Delivery Service (watching with subs for roommate, but next time I'll use French since she knows French and I don't). When Kiki is meeting the lady who owns the bakery, she refers to her as 奥さん - the lady corrects her, saying she's not 奥さん, she owns the bakery. Granted there's not a real equivalent in English, but the subs just said 'Pleased to meet you' and completely missed the content. (Hilarity would ensue if one tried to "learn from the subs" and went around saying 奥さんじゃない！instead of どうぞよろしく。)

Anyway, I apologize for interrupting the regularly-scheduled argument.

Adapting the language to suit natural English is acceptable. Lots of subs I've seen have just been outright wrong (opposite meanings etc) for no reason other than whoever translated it doesn't know the language well enough.

Delina Wrote:(Hilarity would ensue if one tried to "learn from the subs" and went around saying 奥さんじゃない！instead of どうぞよろしく。)

Exactly! It wasn't long after I started getting serious about Japanese that I started to realize just how badly wrong the subs were sometimes, and how they were at least a little wrong most of the time. It amazed me that even with the horrid vocab I had, I knew better than the subber. -sigh-