musigny Wrote:Because a teaching golf pro earns a living from lessons on the driving range doesn't invalidate his swing advice.
...
I use Anki but the SuperMemo site has fantastic advice and research on SRS learning. I don't invalidate their site content because they are selling SRS software.

I'm not saying that the argument is wrong because they are selling software and have ads. I'm saying that there's a conflict of interest.

Your analogies of the golf pro and Supermemo are poor because neither of them involved an adviser advising against an approach different from their own. If an online golf tutor told you that the best way to learn golf was not to go to a golf course and instead practice at home in front of your computer using the tutor, the analogy would be better.

All I'm saying is that it is in this site's interest to publicize myth #1. Just because it's in their interest, doesn't mean that it's wrong. As I stated in the previous post, going to a foreign country will not mean that you will learn the language. However, it does help. Therefore stating that myth is misleading because it suggests that learning a language can be accomplished with the same ease from anywhere.

People may look at their site and dismiss it, claiming that going to the actual country is what you need, not a website. It's wrong to dismiss the website for those reasons but posting misleading statements isn't right either.

musigny Wrote:10,000 hours, that is the magic number. This is why Khatzumoto demands 10,000 of listening and 10,000 sentences for AJATT.

I had the same thought but 10,000 hours doesn't necessarily equal 10,000 sentences. Does Khatzumoto demand 10,000 hours of listening?

cracky Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Spanish is quickly growing in the United States as a dominant language, and, in the future, could make this entire paragraph false.

This isn't really true, there are more and more people here that speak Spanish but there isn't a huge trend to switch over to Spanish. Also it's not like there is an unlimited supply of Spanish speaking people coming into the United States, even if all of Mexico came into the United States: English would still be the dominant language.

A dominant language vs the dominant language. Mexico is not the only Spanish speaking country with large immigration to the US. Birth rate factors in too.

You won't have to "switch" to Spanish but it'd be a slim shot that your kids won't be learning it- in school and out.

cracky Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:These are things you have to actively seek to learn as human being.

Social studies was nothing more than extended history class while I was in school. Had I learned anything significant from it, I think I would have come to hate pre-modern Europeans rather than have a broader cultural understanding. Also, like all history classes I've taken, it was a subject taught specifically for the test, ie a joke.

Why would a language class be any different?

I never said it would be, I just hope that it can/could be more.

History is static to some degree and, as people are proving today, "bordline" useless (emphasis on border). Learning language (something living) is a key to living in a global society (emphasis on a).

There is of course a 3rd option: official bilingualism

wrightak Wrote:

musigny Wrote:10,000 hours, that is the magic number. This is why Khatzumoto demands 10,000 of listening and 10,000 sentences for AJATT.

I had the same thought but 10,000 hours doesn't necessarily equal 10,000 sentences. Does Khatzumoto demand 10,000 hours of listening?

He does indeed.
But maybe it's just because 10000 sounds... important. I spent a lot more than 10000 hours listening to English music, watching English movies etc. yet I would not consider myself even close to native level.

kazelee Wrote:

cracky Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Spanish is quickly growing in the United States as a dominant language, and, in the future, could make this entire paragraph false.

This isn't really true, there are more and more people here that speak Spanish but there isn't a huge trend to switch over to Spanish. Also it's not like there is an unlimited supply of Spanish speaking people coming into the United States, even if all of Mexico came into the United States: English would still be the dominant language.

A dominant language vs the dominant language. Mexico is not the only Spanish speaking country with large immigration to the US. Birth rate factors in too.

True, but most Latino Americans are of Mexican descent. Most of the influx is also from Mexico. Birth rate isn't really a factor because then you have to assume that Spanish speaking people are having way more kids than the sum majority of English speakers. EDIT: Also most second generation children will speak English.

Also, I'm not sure what this keyphrase 'dominant language' means then. The only thing I can find looking it up real quick was something to do with Linguistic imperialism or something.

kazelee Wrote:

cracky Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:These are things you have to actively seek to learn as human being.

Social studies was nothing more than extended history class while I was in school. Had I learned anything significant from it, I think I would have come to hate pre-modern Europeans rather than have a broader cultural understanding. Also, like all history classes I've taken, it was a subject taught specifically for the test, ie a joke.

Why would a language class be any different?

I never said it would be, I just hope that it can/could be more.

History is static to some degree and, as people are proving today, "bordline" useless (emphasis on border). Learning language (something living) is a key to living in a global society (emphasis on a).

It's true that a lot of history isn't all solid facts, but most of it is at least somewhat accurate. Learning about a society and their history can help you understand a good deal about how their society is now. It's not useless to try to understand people by looking at their past to see how they got where they are.

wrightak Wrote:I'm not saying that the argument is wrong because they are selling software and have ads. I'm saying that there's a conflict of interest.

That's irrelevant. High school debate team 101 - don't question your opponent's argument, question your opponent motivations/integrity. If Hitler developed the theory of relativity, it wouldn't be any less valid than if Einstein did, no matter what his motivations were. It is obvious you are an intelligent adult with considerable experience. You can decide for yourself whether something is of value to you or not simply by reading it.

A lot of people on this thread who have written comments have not even read the reasoning behind those myths yet they will spend much more time debating them. It's mental gymnastics for entertainment, not productive discussion to improve language study. In a face to face discussion, the nonsense would get shut-down but in an online forum it can go on forever.

Hitler wasn't a Japanese person with good English ability, thus you are a liberal atheist communist hippy (=wrong).

Jarvik7 Wrote:Hitler wasn't a Japanese person with good English ability, thus you are a liberal atheist communist hippy (=wrong).

This statement speaks for itself.

musigny Wrote:

wrightak Wrote:I'm not saying that the argument is wrong because they are selling software and have ads. I'm saying that there's a conflict of interest.

That's irrelevant. High school debate team 101 - don't question your opponent's argument, question your opponent motivations/integrity.

Identifying conflicts of interest is important. It's important to analyze both the argument and the motivation. This is because facts are stated when making the argument. Facts are sometimes difficult or impossible to verify. If there is a conflict of interest then the author may manipulate the facts to support his argument.

Take for example the recent case of the doctor who stated that MMR vaccines are related to autism. The logic presented in his work might have been infallible but the data he used was fudged.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_...octor.html

It's impossible to evaluate the argument without trusting the facts presented within it. Conflicts of interest and motivation are important considerations when establishing trust.

I forgot about sports scholarships to US universities as well. What a terrible idea. Perhaps I can get an academic scholarship for an Institute of Sport and get into the Olympics. Maybe a gold medal for a PhD.

musigny Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:This is interesting, can't help but give my opinion on those:

1# Of course it is. Where can you get better exposure? Nowhere. A determined student living in Japan will learn faster than a determined student outside of Japan, there's no way around this fact.
2# Agreed, it is not. It's a great way to solidify however.
3# Of course it's okay to make mistakes, as long as you're aware of that fact.
4# Not if you stick to beginning levels, a beginner trying to speak at a high level however = mistakesだらけだ.
5# Not really a myth, getting 100% perfect accent takes even a determined student of pronounciation ages. I mean sure, live in Japan for 20 years focusing on pronounciation constantly and you'll probably perfect it. In 5 years just because you try your best? I don't think so.
6# This I agree with 100%, THIS is a myth.
7# Depends on language and your goals. If you just want to be able to get around etc, it might be fine to ignore it mostly. If you want fluency, you can't. If you want to learn Chinese, it's fundamental. In some other languages, it is not.

Tobberoth, I would discuss this with you but I've viewed much of what you've written on this site and it appears that your original viewpoint is fixed and doesn't change. Last time you started lecturing me like an expert on elementary Japanese grammar and pronunciation like the Harvard grad student the bar in Good Will Hunting (

). If you can be open-minded and civil I'd be glad to discuss.

My viewpoint has changed a lot since I joined the forum so I would guess that while you might have read a lot of what I've posted, remember that I also post way too much Check that postcount and when I joined... yeah, I'm kind of active here, you've probably missed quite a few of my posts.

Thing is, I only change my viewpoint if someone can beyond doubt prove me wrong or give me a really strong argument for something (which I can later test myself and experience). I will never change my opinion on something just because someone else has a different one. It's not about being close-minded, it's about being confident in ones opinions before saying them. If I was unsure about something I wouldn't start an argument over it.

Here's some examples of where I have changed my mind because of discussions here (mainly):
* Learning through context is really powerful. I used to think it was possible but a really weak and slow way of learning. I've changed my mind completely and it's now one of the main things I do to learn Japanese.
* Seeing kanji more often than the SRS tells you is NOT detrimental. I used to think it was, I read almost no Japanese at all while doing RtK because I didn't want to mess with the SRS scheduling. Now I regret doing so.
* が isn't simply a subject marker. Didn't really change my mind about this on this forum, but there was discussion about it here which eventually led me to reading more about it and eventually I read a really good science article on why が is more than just a subject marker.

There's way more of course.

wrightak Wrote:

musigny Wrote:

wrightak Wrote:I'm not saying that the argument is wrong because they are selling software and have ads. I'm saying that there's a conflict of interest.

That's irrelevant. High school debate team 101 - don't question your opponent's argument, question your opponent motivations/integrity.

Identifying conflicts of interest is important. It's important to analyze both the argument and the motivation. This is because facts are stated when making the argument. Facts are sometimes difficult or impossible to verify. If there is a conflict of interest then the author may manipulate the facts to support his argument.

Take for example the recent case of the doctor who stated that MMR vaccines are related to autism. The logic presented in his work might have been infallible but the data he used was fudged.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_...octor.html

It's impossible to evaluate the argument without trusting the facts presented within it. Conflicts of interest and motivation are important considerations when establishing trust.

You can read something as simple as what is being suggested and rationally make your own judgment. While I would like to respond to the rest, an online forum wouldn't be productive to do so.

musigny Wrote:You can read something as simple as what is being suggested and rationally make your own judgment. While I would like to respond to the rest, an online forum wouldn't be productive to do so.

I took the potential conflict of interest issue into account and I made my own judgment and wrote what I thought in my first post. I'm not disagreeing with the myths but I do think that they are misleading.

If you want to respond using other means then you are very welcome.

wrightak Wrote:

musigny Wrote:10,000 hours, that is the magic number. This is why Khatzumoto demands 10,000 of listening and 10,000 sentences for AJATT.

I had the same thought but 10,000 hours doesn't necessarily equal 10,000 sentences. Does Khatzumoto demand 10,000 hours of listening?

He doesn't 'demand' anything. 10,000 was the point that he said 'Whoa! I'm good!' He blogged about this revelation, and the time he had it at, and everyone took it as gospel that this was a magic number.

Tobberoth Wrote:My viewpoint has changed a lot since I joined the forum so I would guess that while you might have read a lot of what I've posted, remember that I also post way too much Check that postcount and when I joined... yeah, I'm kind of active here, you've probably missed quite a few of my posts.

Thing is, I only change my viewpoint if someone can beyond doubt prove me wrong or give me a really strong argument for something (which I can later test myself and experience). I will never change my opinion on something just because someone else has a different one. It's not about being close-minded, it's about being confident in ones opinions before saying them. If I was unsure about something I wouldn't start an argument over it.

Here's some examples of where I have changed my mind because of discussions here (mainly):
* Learning through context is really powerful. I used to think it was possible but a really weak and slow way of learning. I've changed my mind completely and it's now one of the main things I do to learn Japanese.
* Seeing kanji more often than the SRS tells you is NOT detrimental. I used to think it was, I read almost no Japanese at all while doing RtK because I didn't want to mess with the SRS scheduling. Now I regret doing so.
* が isn't simply a subject marker. Didn't really change my mind about this on this forum, but there was discussion about it here which eventually led me to reading more about it and eventually I read a really good science article on why が is more than just a subject marker.

There's way more of course.

I appreciate your remarks above.

I believe it is bad to make mistakes even if you realize you're making them. They are inevitable but whether you are aware of them or not if you keep repeating them, they get imbedded. The reason one keeps repeating mistakes is because they haven't had enough natural input prior or the mistakes have become so imbedded they've become natural, like a non-native who has lived in a country for 30 years yet leaves "s"s off of words or uses the wrong form of a verb. They can explain what's wrong quite easily but those speach patterns were imbedded prior to enough natural input.

I believe that many think that by just going to a country and speaking all the time they will learn to speak the language well. I believe it is critical to start speaking only when someone is ready. That means that they have had sufficient input (i.e. massive) prior to output. I would agree that theoretically it is better to go to the country if the exact same study method were followed but not as a beginner. Ideally, it would be better to go as an advanced intermediate. I also think the author is stating this as an empowering thing. You can become fluent even if you don't have the resources to go off and live in a foreign land. The author has never lived abroad but he speaks with a native accent in English.

I believe someone can have a native accent in Japanese in less than five years based on my own observation. I believe if with deliberate effort one can't develop a near native accent in five years, they will probably never do so.

wrightak Wrote:If you want to respond using other means then you are very welcome.

I would like to discuss it with everyone over a cold one at a local bar. The first round is on me.

musigny Wrote:I would like to discuss it with everyone over a cold one at a local bar. The first round is on me.

Nice! I'm there!

musigny Wrote:I appreciate your remarks above.

I believe it is bad to make mistakes even if you realize you're making them. They are inevitable but whether you are aware of them or not if you keep repeating them, they get imbedded. The reason one keeps repeating mistakes is because they haven't had enough natural input prior or the mistakes have become so imbedded they've become natural, like a non-native who has lived in a country for 30 years yet leaves "s"s off of words or uses the wrong form of a verb. They can explain what's wrong quite easily but those speach patterns were imbedded prior to enough natural input.

I believe that many think that by just going to a country and speaking all the time they will learn to speak the language well. I believe it is critical to start speaking only when someone is ready. That means that they have had sufficient input (i.e. massive) prior to output. I would agree that theoretically it is better to go to the country if the exact same study method were followed but not as a beginner. Ideally, it would be better to go as an advanced intermediate. I also think the author is stating this as an empowering thing. You can become fluent even if you don't have the resources to go off and live in a foreign land. The author has never lived abroad but he speaks with a native accent in English.

I believe someone can have a native accent in Japanese in less than five years based on my own observation. I believe if with deliberate effort one can't develop a near native accent in five years, they will probably never do so.

It's not that I disagree with what you're saying on any point really, just going to justify what I meant when i "shot down" their "anti-myths".

I agree, if you keep doing the same mistakes constantly, they get embedded. However, there's two things I have to say about that:
1. Don't keep repeating them. If you THINK you're saying something the right way, you're not aware of your mistakes. If you KNOW you're saying something the wrong way, accept it, go home and study. Don't be afraid of mistakes, be afraid of not correcting them.
2. As for mistakes being embedded, I believe it's a problem but I believe it's a pretty small one. When I lived in Japan, I made tons of mistakes, some of them on a daily basis. I used some expressions ALL THE TIME, so often that it sounded ridiculous. I noticed it myself and stopped doing it. One can definitely change those embedded mistakes, it just takes a while and determination.

Unlike you, I don't believe it's critical to start speaking only when you have reached a certain level. I believe it, while minimizing mistakes, slows down your acquisition quite a lot. As soon as you know how to introduce yourself, do it. As soon as you know how to order food, do it. That doesn't mean one should just ignore common sense and attempt to speak about things they have no idea how to talk about but I'd say it's generally a good idea to speak as early as one deems themselves good enough. Speaking is a completely different skill form reading, listening and writing, it needs to be trained if you want to become good and fast at it. However yes, if the myth was supposed to mean "go to japan and simply be there, do nothing else" then I agree it's false. Language learning and acquisition is hard work, it doesn't come automatically.

I'm guessing you're American or British which unfortunately means I think you have a semi-skewed idea of the whole pronunciation thing. Everyone, from every corner of the world, speaks English. Since it's used everywhere, it's becoming very very broad. Is this native like pronunciation? Well it doesn't sound like over here, but it sounds like over there, so why not? Those of us who are natives of languages much more isolated have a very different view of pronunciation. Safe to say, I have never met a foreigner living in Sweden who has had perfect pronunciation UNLESS they were born here/came here as children and has lived here as long as they can remember. 10 years, 20 years, it doesn't matter. It seems they just can't ever do it. I'm sure Japanese people feel the same way. WE think someone has perfect Japanese pronunciation but the Japanese do not. Sure, if you try your very best for a very long time, you might be able to fool them over the phone. Might.

I hope you're not offended by the remark about English speaking people not "understanding" this "pronunciation thing", I just can't word myself better.

I don't know why people still worship khatzumoto, so many have commented on how crap his japanese is, especially for a person staying in japan for 5 or whatever years and claiming to study '24/7' or whatever.

I think people should move on from using him as a benchmark.

I don't even know why this thread even exists. It is so stupid, unscientific, based on useless bias after meeting random people, and not the entire population, after not even considering the (even worse) Japanese skill of foreigners. As a matter of fact, my lecturer (an academic) is conducting (an academic) study as to why foreigners never reach a high level of Japanese, they usually reach JLPT4/3/2 profficiency but never higher. Again I don't mean to offend people with my emphasis on academia here, rather, i'm trying to say that these sorts of hypothesis are meaningless unless professionally done, even still they are still somewhat meaningless since it works for a very small sample of a population.

It gets you nowhere.

liosama Wrote:I don't know why people still worship khatzumoto, so many have commented on how crap his japanese is, especially for a person staying in japan for 5 or whatever years and claiming to study '24/7' or whatever.

I think people should move on from using him as a benchmark.

Because he's where we want to be: Speaking and understanding Japanese.

I don't speak well enough to say whether he speaks well or not. But he obviously speaks well enough to get around, and that would be awesome for me.

Personally, I don't think I'll ever get past the 'able to read manga and watch anime without subs' stage. I'm not a social person and have no plans to move to Japan. That seriously hampers me when trying to learn to speak. There's not even a big Japanese community here where I live... At least, not that I could find.

wccrawford Wrote:I don't speak well enough to say whether he speaks well or not. But he obviously speaks well enough to get around, and that would be awesome for me.

Well, if the bar is that low, I don't really see the point of AJATT and mentioning Khazu at all... I became fluent enough to get around and understand from traditional studies in Japan for 12 months. The reason I think so many people like to refer to him in arguments and discussions ("yeah but khazu said..." and "that's not what AJATT says") is because people seem to think that he came up with some miracle cure to become completely fluent in Japanese in 18 months. If you admit his ability is not that special, especially not compared to the time it took, a lot of prestige is lost and I guess that's what we're saying. Not that the techniques aren't sound, just that he shouldn't be held as a benchmark.

Tobberoth Wrote:Well, if the bar is that low,

He was able to self-study, with his own methods, and being good enough to get a job in Japan in 18 months. I don't really see that as low.

But maybe I overestimate how hard Japanese is? Part of the problem is that I'm judging it against my 2 years of Spanish in High School. I was nowhere -near- ready to order food in a restaurant, let alone get a job, after HS. Comparing his success with a -much- tougher language to mine with a language that is quite similar... Well, it's almost a miracle.

I recognize that my HS experience was mainly because they have to teach to the uninterested kids, and it wasn't really teaching me much Spanish at all.

But I also look at my own progress. I've been actively working at learning Japanese for almost about a year now. I won't be anywhere near ready to communicate in Japanese in another 6 months. Or even a year. (I'll be way, way, way better at Japanese than Spanish, though... I already am.)

Khatz is an icon because he took the 'impossible' task of learning Japanese and showed that it was possible... And possible in a reasonable timeframe for a normal person. (Although, I'll admit he spends an unreasonable amount of time each day on it... The rest of us have jobs or college to go to. I can't imagine how he made that much time each day if he did, too.) Everyone that is having a tough time can now say 'Khatz did it' and remember that it's not impossible.

People need that, so they do it.

It's also of note that there's not a lot of people that hang around Japanese study websites that have attained decent enough fluency in Japanese to point to when citing advise, I guess.

Agreed though, I get tired of hearing about that guy. He's probably an alright guy or whatever, just seems his name comes up in every forum thread I read as if he was the foremost expert on Japanese studies in the world. heh... It's rather ridiculous how popular the internet can make people.

Even funnier that the guy fluency was largely unproven/untested until rather recently, right? Again, not that he's not a good source of advice - just people need to chill out about it a bit. Freaking fads...

Edit: I'll also note that I've met quite a few foreigners living in Japan that speak decent Japanese. I didn't study Japanese at all before I came here. Some of the people I met early on really made me believe that, truly, anyone could learn to speak Japanese. So luckily I never had that "Japanese is impossible" hurdle - when I started studying, it was just another foreign language. It actually wasn't until I hopped on the internet and started seeing so many people complaining about how impossible it was that I started to lose motivation. heh...

Edit 2: Also, I can't really imagine myself studying Japanese and not living in Japan. Almost all of my motivation is the ability to go out and immediately use what I'm studying at that time. Hats off to those of you not living in Japan but are rigorously studying. I definitely would've lost interest...

wccrawford Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Well, if the bar is that low,

He was able to self-study, with his own methods, and being good enough to get a job in Japan in 18 months. I don't really see that as low.

It wasn't his own methods though, SRS systems has existed for a long time and the "constant immersion" he got from antimoon. I agree, selfstudying at home to the point of getting a job in Japan is very impressive, but I was talking about what you said: speaking and understanding Japanese. It isn't really hard to do in 18 months, especially not if you study it properly (American college not included unfortunately).

As for knowing few people who did it and seeing it as impossible... I don't know, i agree that it's very uncommon to see people self-studying getting that good... but if you live in Japan and go to some language institute, you will quickly see that it isn't all that hard. The reason self-studying people rarely get good is because they don't get any immersion and they have no situation in where they can actively use the language. As long as those problems are remedied, learning a language becomes quite simple. Khazu brought it up where everyone could see and realize it... but long before I heard of AJATT, my friends were always agreeing with me: We're better than everyone else at Japanese because we live in Japan, we hear and use it everyday. It's not some miracle technique... it's common sense.