Why even -try- to use katakana as a 'pronunciation guide' to English? Why not teach the English alphabet right off the bat, and then require them to learn to pronounce just like English kids?

It's the same thing we say for Japanese: -Do not use Romaji!-

They should be saying: -Do not use katakana!-

They do teach the English alphabet right away. The problem is that the alphabet letters don't make sounds by themselves. Right? The sound that I say when I look at an "e" depends on the context in which I see it. Japanese textbooks do tend to include the International Phonetic Alphabet to give pronunciations of words, but I don't know how successfully that's been used.

KristinHolly Wrote:They do teach the English alphabet right away. The problem is that the alphabet letters don't make sounds by themselves. Right? The sound that I say when I look at an "e" depends on the context in which I see it. Japanese textbooks do tend to include the International Phonetic Alphabet to give pronunciations of words, but I don't know how successfully that's been used.

Teaching it right away and using it to teach vocabulary are obviously different or there wouldn't be so many people in this thread saying the teacher wrote on the board in kana.

They should teach the kids how to read the basic sounds in english, and then never use katakana again for English class. Just like they do in English schools, except English schools have to start from nothing.

wccrawford Wrote:Respect is for people who deserve it and being a teacher, cop, etc does not automatically qualify you for respect.

So true. @#$% the Poe-Lease.

I'm not saying respect it automatically deserved. Respect is something each person must earn with each individual they meet. There's no getting around that. I'm saying this one statement, that seems to have been repeated for longest, is unfair, overgeneralizing and thus.... ignorant...

It's not necessary to apologize for the man using it, it's also not something that should so casually referenced. There's good and bad in all spectrum of every occupation, is there not?

KristinHolly Wrote:What part does cultural imperialism play in our frustration with Japanese pronunciation of English?

We have to hear it. lol

JK but not really. French was taught at my middle school... for a little while (no budget I guess). Spanish was taught at my elementary school... for a little while (budget?). I doubt it had anything to do with imperialism.

I agree with what's been said... it's like past retarded to try to teach a language without utilizing the proper alphabet. It makes it seem like they are just playing some sort of game rather than actually learning the language. "How many points can you get on "this" test." (Deja Vu)

I'm curious though... why... if they have a teacher who speaks both Japanese and English, is the lesson overseen by someone who clearly underestimates the students ability to learn the English language? (regarding the article mostly)

I'm also curious as to what we can be done to have such a flawed methodology changed. Not for imperialistic purposes and not just in Japan, but for the beauty of language in general, systems worldwide. Because I know for fact, that if I approached my French teacher and asked her what's the difference in pronounciation between "an" and "on" and she was like, "this it too hard for you so just focus on the spelling to past the test," I'd be like "WTF!? You whore! Who are you to tell me what's too hard for me!? Eat s#$% and die!" Yeah I lucked out and got the good one's. (compared to other classes)

KristinHolly Wrote:Playing the devil's advocate for a bit -- Why should Japanese people learn to speak English? Isn't learning to read English for meaning ultimately more useful for the vast majority of people?

I think you've hit upon a key point in this issue.

English was originally pushed as a subject in Japan, not so Japanese people could speak with English-speaking foreigners, but so that they could translate printed material from English to Japanese. Speaking ability was, therefore, unecessary.

Only later, when Japan's ecomony became stronger, and their increased presence abroad (both political and economic) necessitated a growing body of workers who could speak Japanese did that skill set become important.

Change and Japan, however, have not always gotten along very well. So, what you're seeing is a very old-fashioned, entrenched education system being forced to play catch-up to the current social and economic situation (and it is kicking and screaming the whole way).

kazelee Wrote:I'm curious though... why... if they have a teacher who speaks both Japanese and English, is the lesson overseen by someone who clearly underestimates the students ability to learn the English language? (regarding the article mostly)

It is the nature of the Japanese education to spoon-feed students.

In the U.S., one of the main points of education is to get students to think for themselves. Thus, the number of individual/group projects, essays, research papers, etc. (I'm not here to debate the effectiveness of the U.S. education system to implement this ideology, simply stating that this is the case.)

In Japan, however, this is not the point of education. Education (at least traditionally) in Japan is meant to have students memorize large chunks of information for tests. Period.

This has fostered a belief (or, perhaps more accurately, an unconscious tendancy) among Japanese teachers that everything must be explained in excruciating detail to the students, who are not asked for their input, their opinion or their reflections. They listen, take notes, go home and memorize those notes, and come back and regurgitate the material for the test.

As the Japanese have been finding, however, this method is completely ineffective when trying to teach the students to speak a foreign language. But, once again, making the necessary changes in the education system is just going to take time - perhaps more than in other countries.

EnjukuBlack Wrote:In Japan, however, this is not the point of education. Education (at least traditionally) in Japan is meant to have students memorize large chunks of information for tests. Period.

I agree with alot of what was said except for the "period" part. Once students enter junior high school, they are directly and indirectly taught how to be "Japanese". They are given a rule book which basically states we will all follow these detailed rules together and suffer together.

Also, they take time out of school to do different projects such as a newspaper in each class about their school trip or the Culture Festival, Sports Day etc.

Case in point for Sports Day: They go outside for 3 hours a days for 2 weeks and practice every detail of the event. The opening speech, each grades' particular competition event, the parade march before the opening speech...and it's 40 degrees outside(90 something in Farenheit).

They also have art class where they can be creative. Home Economics, shop for building different things such as CD racks, bookshelfs.

The point being, they do everything together as a group which is the most important part of their education.

The memorization really doesn't take place until they are 9th graders or 12 graders right before they take their entrance exams.

And everytime their is some event as the school, every student writes down what they thought of it(volleyball tournament, human pyramid practice, etc.) and these are then collected and made into newsletters.

So there is much more going on than "memorization". I've personally found the only REAL difference is everyone takes the same class at the same level. There are 7th grade students here who should be taking 9th grade math classes, etc.

Fuel, meet fire. Fire, fuel.

Why Can't Japanese Kids Get Into Harvard?
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/e...205a1.html

More criticism of the Japanese educational system, for the heck of it.

theasianpleaser Wrote:I agree with alot of what was said except for the "period" part. Once students enter junior high school, they are directly and indirectly taught how to be "Japanese". They are given a rule book which basically states we will all follow these detailed rules together and suffer together.

Which, I think, just coincides with my original point of education being about the students memorizing things. "This is how you will behave in society. Remember it."

This would hold true for your Sports Day example, as well. "This is what you will do and say on Sports Day. Remember it."

theasianpleaser Wrote:Also, they take time out of school to do different projects such as a newspaper in each class about their school trip or the Culture Festival, Sports Day etc.

I don't think this changes the fact that in class they are being asked to memorize, memorize, memorize.

And yes, there is a good deal of memorization in the U.S. education system, but there is also time for reflection, opinions, self-study, presentations, etc. All things that have been largely (if not completely) absent from traditional Japanese education.

theasianpleaser Wrote:They also have art class where they can be creative. Home Economics, shop for building different things such as CD racks, bookshelfs.

Okay. When I said "memorize. period." I wasn't thinking of the art classes. At the same time, you have to realize that these classes are a minority when compared to the classes in which they are engaged in rote memorization.

theasianpleaser Wrote:The point being, they do everything together as a group which is the most important part of their education.

This is a good point. But, then again, what better way to ensure that everyone is part of the group? Have them memorize the exact same material, without encouraging them to develop their own (i.e., individual) opinions.

theasianpleaser Wrote:The memorization really doesn't take place until they are 9th graders or 12 graders right before they take their entrance exams.

Actually, the pressure of entrance exams starts in about 5th grade. Yes, there are entrance exams for middle school, as well.

theasianpleaser Wrote:And everytime their is some event as the school, every student writes down what they thought of it(volleyball tournament, human pyramid practice, etc.) and these are then collected and made into newsletters.

Again, this is such an isolated event compared to the overall scheme of their rote education.


Please realize that when I made my original post, I did say traditional education. I know that things are changing, my point was that these changes are coming from this background of nothing but memorization, and that changes will take time.

rich_f Wrote:Fuel, meet fire. Fire, fuel.

Why Can't Japanese Kids Get Into Harvard?
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/e...205a1.html

More criticism of the Japanese educational system, for the heck of it.

"Schools do not foster discussion and a debate in a give-and-take atmosphere. Consequently, Japanese high school graduates appear inarticulate to Americans.

Unlike the best U.S. high schools (from which most Ivy League students come), Japanese schools do not require their students to write long essays that demand both research and analytical skills. Consequently, Japanese students are also weak when it comes to written expression."

This was pretty much the point of my original post - sadly, I didn't phrase it as succinctly as this article.

I had an experience when I was doing my study abroad in Japan that really made me aware of this tendancy. I took a couple of literature classes with some Japanese students, but the class was taught by a foreign professor. As he was used to doing back in his home country, he would always start each class with time for discussion about the reading material that was assigned for that day. And every time, the Japanese students couldn't find anything meaningful to say about the material.

You could argue that their English wasn't good enough, but there were at least three girls in that class who had scary good English. And I finally asked them after class one day "you girls are all very talkative and have very good English, but rarely say anything about the books in class. Why? Did you not read it? Are you shy? What?"

Their answer? They never had to do such a thing in any of their classes in middle school, high school or college. Even literature classes! "What do you do in lit. class then?" I asked

"We memorize authors's names, the titles of the books they wrote and the dates they wrote them."
:o

rich_f Wrote:Fuel, meet fire. Fire, fuel.

Why Can't Japanese Kids Get Into Harvard?
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/e...205a1.html

More criticism of the Japanese educational system, for the heck of it.

LOL! I love these articles. Either the person writing the article has their head stuck up their ass and dosen't realize that the "U.S. way" isn't the best for everyone or well...I don't know.

Try having American college students fluent in Japanese write a Japanese style poem. Bets are the fellow Japanese students would think it isn't very good.

But that's just what I think.

@EnjukuBlack

Good points. You have yours, I have mine. I agree to diagree.

theasianpleaser Wrote:Try having American college students fluent in Japanese write a Japanese style poem. Bets are the fellow Japanese students would think it isn't very good.

Try having them (americans) write a poem in English and the results wouldn't be much different. Same with are oversees peoples in question. Poetry is an art that takes years to cultivate. Anyone can right <- (wtf english go bad) about a dead cat. I takes a unique individual to get people to care.

Quote:Unlike the best U.S. high schools (from which most Ivy League students come), Japanese schools do not require their students to write long essays that demand both research and analytical skills. Consequently, Japanese students are also weak when it comes to written expression.

Last semester at university I took two classes in English together with some Japanese students. Of course we had to write some essays to get credit, about 4-5 pages each. In comparison to my home university - and I guess this holds true for almost any university - it was next to nothing. However when I asked some fellow Japanese students about their topics, how much they wrote etc. I was pretty surprised to find out that almost none of them wrote more than 2, maybe 3 pages. At first I thought it was because they never wrote any essays or reports in English (same for me), however a friend later told me they probably had no prior experience in writing any kind of reports.
Kind of weird considering they are university students. I wonder what the content of those infamous entrance exams really is.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:I wonder what the content of those infamous entrance exams really is.

Many years ago I did some example math problems from the University of Tokyo's exam. The problems were not so difficult as far as what method to apply, but you had to memorize every trigonometric identity in order to simplify the problem from calculus(differentiate, set equal to 0, solve for x) to the point you could use junior high school algebra. Calculators not allowed.

Random dates from history. Which acting vice sub-commander harlot of the Shogun played a crucial role in the development of Japan's stealing of kanji from China?

What is the most widely accepted date as her birthdate?

What is the 145th most widely accepted day she drank 0.045 liters of sake?

Point being, they are random questions much like the ACT or SAT but involve more specific answers that can't be reasoned out, just memorized.

I agree that younger Japanese people generally have a better grasp on spoken English than older, more literate Japanese. This is mostly due to knowledge building on knowledge (people are generally better educated than their parents), proliferation of English all throughout Japanese media and pop culture, ease of travelling abroad recently, and many more foreigners in Japanese society and school systems than in previous generations. Further, Japanese people are ohhh ssoooo slowly overcoming their overbearing cultural shyness (though this isn't really the correct word - it's more like, super politeness. I wish I didn't suck so much at my native language , which cripples their ability to develop conversation skills.

Anyways, a lot of the problem with the alphabet and sounds not being taught correctly is that a lot of this education happens in elementary schools, at which time English is non-mandatory. As such, the teachers that teach English at that level are very incompetent (from what I've seen - at about 10 elementary schools I've been to). It's looked at as more of an extracurricular activity at that level, but it actually ingrains a lot of damaging "knowledge" into the children that is very difficult to overcome later when introduced to structured language education.

Ben_Nielson Wrote:Anyways, a lot of the problem with the alphabet and sounds not being taught correctly is that a lot of this education happens in elementary schools, at which time English is non-mandatory. As such, the teachers that teach English at that level are very incompetent (from what I've seen - at about 10 elementary schools I've been to). It's looked at as more of an extracurricular activity at that level, but it actually ingrains a lot of damaging "knowledge" into the children that is very difficult to overcome later when introduced to structured language education.

That, I can understand... They're just trying to get them started on it. (I won't say there isn't a better way, but I understand why they do it.) But there's still no excuse for the teacher that writes in katakana on the blackboard while teaching English.

For a few months, every time I came across an English word in katakana I would cringe. Most of them are barely recognizable as the English word, and some are downright wrong. Take the example from before: マーチ. March? Match? Marsh? Much? Even worse, they pronounce it 'maachi'. It's like trying to learning Japanese all in kana and not using kanji at all. Way, way, way too confusing.

As for 'why teach them English'? For the same reason that every gradeschooler in the US should be learning a second language: Worldwide communication. I can think of tons of classes I'd see dropped in favor of language classes. Social studies/History is at the top of my list. I remember virtually nothing from all those classes. I memorized the items long enough to pass the test and promptly forgot them. It doesn't matter 1 iota what year Rome fell. If I need that info, I'll look it up.

I know worldwide communication sounds nice, but what does it mean? I really don't think it's going to happen by teaching kids phrases in foreign languages. (edit: said in a gently humorous tone with no intent to offend)

Learning a second language like French or Spanish in the States and learning English as a second language are different things in terms of practical utility for communication with the rest of the world. Almost everybody in the US is walking around with some rusty Spanish or French or German, but as long as you can make it through the menu in a Mexican restaurant, you're probably fine for all practical purposes. Nobody really cares if you've forgotten how to conjugate verbs -- not because they don't care about the world but because there is no pressing need for the skill.

Even being fluent in a foreign language doesn't mean that you will carefully follow world events, think critically about politics, make good economic choices, and consider cultural differences. Social studies might help, though . . . or literature or history or comparative religious studies . . .

KristinHolly Wrote:Even being fluent in a foreign language doesn't mean that you will carefully follow world events, think critically about politics, make good economic choices, and consider cultural differences. Social studies might help, though . . . or literature or history or comparative religious studies . . .

And what makes world events so necessary to follow? Do I need to know anything about iraq's history to understand that there's a war there? I don't have any effect on the situation, so my knowledge of their history is useful only as entertainment.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people -in America- that don't speak English, but do speak Spanish. Being able to communicate with them is a benefit for me and them both. In Canada, there's plenty of reason to learn French.

Every country has another language that is beneficial to learn, and even the ones that aren't obviously beneficial are good resume fodder. They will open doors that would otherwise be closed. History classes can't claim the same thing.

theasianpleaser Wrote:And everytime their is some event as the school, every student writes down what they thought of it(volleyball tournament, human pyramid practice, etc.) and these are then collected and made into newsletters.

So that's why after every Japan culture class, I had to write a 感想文 about what we did. I just assumed the teachers were collecting fodder for the website. (which I still think they are) But, they were just doing what they always had to do after cultural events when they were in school.

That was a bit random, anyways, right now I am studying abroad in Tokyo, and yes I can confirm that the number of students that can speak English well are in the minority. The ones that can speak it well that I know either studied abroad or are some kind of English/American Lit majors, so I would expect they get some decent exposure to real English there, although I don't really know what their classes are like. Although I have met quite a few who also do not speak English hardly at all, but this is probably the infamous shyness cropping up again.

Why this isn't a great statement on the Japanese ESL education system, it means that most of my interaction with Japanese students is in Japanese which is good fro improving my Japanese.

wccrawford Wrote:And what makes world events so necessary to follow? Do I need to know anything about iraq's history to understand that there's a war there? I don't have any effect on the situation, so my knowledge of their history is useful only as entertainment.

We do, at least ostensibly, live in a democracy. There's a diffusion of responsibility, certainly, but "tiny individual effect" and "[not] any effect" are at least potentially different.

Really, many of the conflicts in the world could be solved if people would just stop communicating with each other.

~J

woodwojr Wrote:We do, at least ostensibly, live in a democracy. There's a diffusion of responsibility, certainly, but "tiny individual effect" and "[not] any effect" are at least potentially different.
~J

Unfortunately, our version of Democracy is a Representative Republic. The only say we have is whether someone gets elected next time, and I don't know any history beyond what I've lived through to be able to figure that out.

Japanese are notoriously bad at foreign languages. A lot of the reasons are brought up in this thread. They are shy. Volunteering, showing off, etc. are never rewarded. Japanese has fewer sounds than English. They learn to pronounce English through Japanese katakana for six years in junior and high school. They tend to join ESL courses that have other Japanese in them and associate with the other Japanese while overseas. So their English speaking time when overseas can be reduced down to ordering in restaurants.

The input hypothesis does a lot to explain this. They are exposed to poor English being spoken all through junior high and high school. They hear poor pronunciation. They start speaking too early and develop bad habits. Even when overseas they are in classes with foreigners hearing poor English being spoken.

They need to spend 1000 hours listening to native English and reading native English before ever trying to produce any output. I imgaine they don't get that even spend a year abroad. Problem is they've gotten to output way before they had sufficient input to produce any correct output.

Antimoon details the issues quite succinctly in their Myths section:

Myth #1: "The best way to learn a foreign language is to go to a foreign country"
Myth #2: "The best way to learn a foreign language is to speak it"
Myth #3: "It is OK to make mistakes"
Myth #4: "As a beginner, you're bound to make a lot of mistakes"
Myth #5: "You are a foreigner, therefore you will always have a foreign accent"
Myth #6: "If you didn't learn a foreign language as a child, you will never be fully proficient in its grammar"
Myth #7: "Studying pronunciation is not important"

http://www.antimoon.com/other/myths.htm

wccrawford Wrote:

woodwojr Wrote:We do, at least ostensibly, live in a democracy. There's a diffusion of responsibility, certainly, but "tiny individual effect" and "[not] any effect" are at least potentially different.
~J

Unfortunately, our version of Democracy is a Representative Republic. The only say we have is whether someone gets elected next time

This is true. We only live in a democracy once every four years. An enlightening moment for me was an interview Dick Cheney was given. He was asked what he thought of the fact that the American people disagree with most everything the administration is doing. His response was, "So what?". For the last four years they had free reign to do what ever they wanted as long as they could intimidate or make deals with congress. Government was certainly not run "by the people".

musigny Wrote:Antimoon details the issues quite succinctly in their Myths section:

Myth #1: "The best way to learn a foreign language is to go to a foreign country"
Myth #2: "The best way to learn a foreign language is to speak it"
Myth #3: "It is OK to make mistakes"
Myth #4: "As a beginner, you're bound to make a lot of mistakes"
Myth #5: "You are a foreigner, therefore you will always have a foreign accent"
Myth #6: "If you didn't learn a foreign language as a child, you will never be fully proficient in its grammar"
Myth #7: "Studying pronunciation is not important"

http://www.antimoon.com/other/myths.htm

They aim to disprove 'myths' with 'facts' that aren't facts, but more opinion. Not the best way to go about things. I'm not saying they're completely wrong, but... Well, good lies are mostly truth.

wccrawford Wrote:Unfortunately, our version of Democracy is a Representative Republic. The only say we have is whether someone gets elected next time, and I don't know any history beyond what I've lived through to be able to figure that out.

The point is only slightly altered; the additional complexity of "find someone who will vote the way you want to and vote for them" as compared to "vote the way you want to" doesn't really change the discussion at this level of abstraction.

~J

musigny Wrote:Myth #1: "The best way to learn a foreign language is to go to a foreign country"
Myth #2: "The best way to learn a foreign language is to speak it"
Myth #3: "It is OK to make mistakes"
Myth #4: "As a beginner, you're bound to make a lot of mistakes"
Myth #5: "You are a foreigner, therefore you will always have a foreign accent"
Myth #6: "If you didn't learn a foreign language as a child, you will never be fully proficient in its grammar"
Myth #7: "Studying pronunciation is not important"

http://www.antimoon.com/other/myths.htm

This is interesting, can't help but give my opinion on those:

1# Of course it is. Where can you get better exposure? Nowhere. A determined student living in Japan will learn faster than a determined student outside of Japan, there's no way around this fact.
2# Agreed, it is not. It's a great way to solidify however.
3# Of course it's okay to make mistakes, as long as you're aware of that fact.
4# Not if you stick to beginning levels, a beginner trying to speak at a high level however = mistakesだらけだ.
5# Not really a myth, getting 100% perfect accent takes even a determined student of pronounciation ages. I mean sure, live in Japan for 20 years focusing on pronounciation constantly and you'll probably perfect it. In 5 years just because you try your best? I don't think so.
6# This I agree with 100%, THIS is a myth.
7# Depends on language and your goals. If you just want to be able to get around etc, it might be fine to ignore it mostly. If you want fluency, you can't. If you want to learn Chinese, it's fundamental. In some other languages, it is not.