Hey, what made me ask that question here is this, the "best answer" is going crazy!
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...713AArIBta
Do you think that's correct? maybe he/she meant native level fluency.
Why languages takes 10 years but Japanese 15 years? that's not convincing at all, Japanese has some easier sides than other languages.
Suppose the student is dedicated and study 3 hours per day, self studying.
I'm not asking for the RIGHT and TRUE answer, just some estimated numbers.
And about JLPT level 1, I know that it doesn't mean fluency (kanji for instance), but how long do you think it takes to be able to pass it?
And by fluency, I mean being able to talk with people easily, express yourself clearly in both talking and writing and being and hearing every word said.
This isn't necessary a Q&A topic, a discussion is welcomed,
Thanks.

--EDIT: Note: MASTERING a language takes a life long time, so don't think I'm talking about above native proficiency, or even university graduate native.

--EDIT2: what I mean by fluency is "ADVANCED MID" in here: http://www.languagetesting.com/scale.htm#advanced_low

His answer is very generalized and simple but I can see where he's coming from.

My personal opinion is that it depends on a LOT of factors. How do you define fluency? What studying methods are you using? How motivated are you? Do you have previous knowledge which helps? (Like knowing Korean).

If you're talking about native level (which I consider very different from fluent level) then I would guess 10 years is a pretty good estimate, even for a very determined and knowledgeable student.

Saying Japanese takes 15 years while other languages take 10 however makes little sense. Sure, learning an indo-european language to fluency is usually a tad bit easier because even highlevel grammar and idiomatic phrases often map pretty well between languages. But 5 extra years because of that? No, I seriously doubt that.

I figure six years is a good upper limit assuming total immersion, since that's about when you reach fluency in your first language.

By removing that assumption, you can delay it as long as you like.

~J

I think about 5 years, maybe 7 years, I think that's long enough to be able to say and do whatever you wanna do in Japan, read newsletter and watch TV.
I'm sure that learning English from scratch, with dedication, takes about 4 years be able to do what I mentioned. I'm sure that the first 9 years since I started learning English can be done in 1.5 year, the last 3 years can be done in another 1.5 year, and 1 last year to reach fluency level as I don't consider myself fluent. Don't forget that learning the language will be some kind of way of life.

It is interesting that government sheet listed Japanese as the most difficult of all languages to learn.
http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november...tions.html

What does fluent really mean? When you can speak at the level of a six year old? Does this mean only verbal or include literacy as well?

bodhisamaya Wrote:It is interesting that government sheet listed Japanese as the most difficult of all languages to learn.
http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november...tions.html

What does fluent really mean? When you can speak at the level of a six year old? Does this mean only verbal or include literacy as well?

Literacy too, but I kinda mixed it with my definition of fluency
I've read many times about "aptitude for learning languages" does it really differ from person to another? If it's so, I don't know about myself but I always liked learning languages, always had fun learning them (even grammar), they were easy subjects at school for me and I understood many of the grammars without any serious studying, does that make me one of those who has above average aptitude for learning languages?

15 years is way too much.

Judging from my own progress so far (I've been studying for almost a year now, and I'm certainly not stellar), I'd say you can reach an advanced level in Japanese in 2 - 3 years if you use the right methods and you are dedicated enough. By advanced level I mean being able to read and comprehend virtually anything a typical native speaker would comprehend, and being able to write and talk about less complex topics without too much trouble.

Now, being able do it as comfortably as you do with your native language (my definition of fluency) may take more time. A couple of years living in Japan, I suppose, but certainly not a decade.

I looked at the link, and it's interesting,
"Category III: Languages which are exceptionally difficult for native English speakers"
wow Arabic is there with Japanese lol
I hope my knowledge of two very different languages gave me a better skill in learning languages, as Japanese is different from both too
But it's encouraging to learn Spanish now too

iSoron Wrote:15 years is way too much.

Judging from my own progress so far (I've been studying for almost a year now, and I'm certainly not stellar), I'd say you can reach an advanced level in Japanese in 2 - 3 years if you use the right methods and you are dedicated enough. By advanced level I mean being able to read and comprehend virtually anything a typical native speaker would comprehend, and being able to write and talk about less complex topics without too much trouble.

That was useful, thanks.

undead_saif Wrote:I hope my knowledge of two very different languages gave me a better skill in learning languages, as Japanese is different from both too

It should help a lot, actually. I think the hardest part of learning a second language is giving up on the things from your first language that you think are set in stone. Grammar and pronunciation , especially.

If you've already done that for L2, then L3 is that much easier.

18 months > http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/

(hey, just kidding)

What if instead of years we put this in terms of hours? Reason being is someone who takes 3 hours a day of dedicated study along with whatever immersion (living there, bringing to them) is bound to be better in 2 years than someone that studied 1 hour a day for 4 years *cough* college student *cough*.

That's 2300 hours of study compared to 1480 hours. The hard part is gauging the benefit of the immersion part when compounded with the study.

Complete assumption on my part.

Nukemarine Wrote:That's 2300 hours of study compared to 1480 hours. The hard part is gauging the benefit of the immersion part when compounded with the study.

Complete assumption on my part.

Logically what you said should be correct, I know that this question depends on many variables, but I think the two most important things are the "methods" and "tools" used in studying, and what you wrote there is a good point too.

Nukemarine Wrote:What if instead of years we put this in terms of hours? Reason being is someone who takes 3 hours a day of dedicated study along with whatever immersion (living there, bringing to them) is bound to be better in 2 years than someone that studied 1 hour a day for 4 years *cough* college student *cough*.

That's 2300 hours of study compared to 1480 hours. The hard part is gauging the benefit of the immersion part when compounded with the study.

Complete assumption on my part.

That's being generous with the hours for the college student. My university only requires a bit under three hours of class time per week, homework noninclusive. And we only rarely have homework assigned in the first place. On the plus side, I have a lot of time for self study.

You can never be fluent in Japanese! Even the Japanese can barely understand their spoken language! They need subtitles on their shows just to stand a chance!
They're also all illiterate.
Don't think about that too hard.

QuackingShoe Wrote:You can never be fluent in Japanese! Even the Japanese can barely understand their spoken language! They need subtitles on their shows just to stand a chance!
They're also all illiterate.
Don't think about that too hard.

I hear the average Japanese person knows over 300 kanji. How could they possibly remember so many?

kazelee Wrote:I hear the average Japanese person knows over 300 kanji. How could they possibly remember so many?

The Asian brain is designed differently. It's specifically capable of memorizing large numbers of meaningless images. Also: Math.

Kazelee, Quackingshoe, take that to the "Demotivation Thread".

kazelee Wrote:I hear the average Japanese person knows over 300 kanji. How could they possibly remember so many?

You, are a genius.

I work at a university with students intending to study abroad. I was working with a Japanese Linguistics prof today doing interviews. The topic of fluency came up with the parameters of being skilled enough to be an interpreter. I mentioned that someone had told me roughly five years of study and immersion. We're talking hardcore study here. He didn't think that sounded all that unreasonable.

Since this board is mainly populated by those using self study methods, it seems uni courses don't get much respect. But if a student really wants to do well, A the A- range, they have to study for 2 or more hours outside of class. So that would be about 15 hours a week per class. By the third and fourth year, they may take 2-3 classes per week. That is in a good program. I'm sure there are many programs where you can skate by with just an hour of class a day and a little bit of reading. I'm talking about a well structured program with B.A. through Ph.D. level degrees and faculty in different areas of specialization. I think self study can carry you a looooong way, but I don't think you would ever get to the level of fluency where you could interpret without some formal instruction. I'm sure this is probably a dead horse that has been beat to death on some thread somewhere on the board, so I won't beat it anymore.

Forever if you waste your time on hypothetical discussions in english.

I think about half of the students in my Japanese class at highschool fit into Novice-High...we've all been going for three and a half years...thats just sad. Me and about two others in the class fit into advanced-low I think. I can hold a conversation in Japanese for hours about some sometimes quite specialised subjects ( Guitar playing and music, Language, visual arts/painting etc. ) but I have to be careful not to go out of my depth and stumble into a quagmire of words I don't know/ concepts I have to use comprehensible but obviously incorrect grammar to convey. so I think that puts me and some others in advanced low

More six months, here. Hopefully =D

yukkuri_kame Wrote:Forever if you waste your time on hypothetical discussions in english.

You're right. Posting in this thread must have knocked my Japanese studies back an entire year, maybe more. How will I ever progress at this rate?

QuackingShoe Wrote:You can never be fluent in Japanese! Even the Japanese can barely understand their spoken language! They need subtitles on their shows just to stand a chance!
They're also all illiterate.
Don't think about that too hard.

I think that I can hear Japanese in Japanese songs more clearly than than English in English songs, lol. He's kidding rights? Why kidding here?

baldy514 Wrote:I work at a university with students intending to study abroad. I was working with a Japanese Linguistics prof today doing interviews. The topic of fluency came up with the parameters of being skilled enough to be an interpreter. I mentioned that someone had told me roughly five years of study and immersion. We're talking hardcore study here. He didn't think that sounded all that unreasonable.

Hardcore study (I think that means more than 5 hrs/day) and immersion for 5 years is something hard, we can make some immersion-like atmosphere without going to Japan, maybe for 3 years of those 5, but hardcore studying for 5 years? That's way too much for me, but if I can find a job there and then complete studying until I reach a good enough skill, it's more acceptable, BUT no more than 6 years lol.

Remember there's a difference from being a functional adult in Japanese society, and being an interpreter for businesses and/or governmental agencies.

I'm aiming for the functional adult.