QuackingShoe Wrote:You can never be fluent in Japanese! Even the Japanese can barely understand their spoken language! They need subtitles on their shows just to stand a chance!
They're also all illiterate.
Don't think about that too hard.

I am having trouble seeing when people are being serious or joking.

But this brings up a good point. I have wondered why they do put up subtitles in everything. Is that truly the reason why? Do they have trouble understanding each other or is it the use of the Kansai accent that can throw people off?

Wisher

Nukemarine Wrote:Remember there's a difference from being a functional adult in Japanese society, and being an interpreter for businesses and/or governmental agencies.

I'm aiming for the functional adult.

Ok, Honestly I don't know which one is Harder to achieve, which one is?
A functional adult means business and everyday life fluency and literacy, right?

undead_saif Wrote:He's kidding rights?

Yes.
I thought the illiterate having to read to understand speech would have given it away, but hmm...

@Wisher,
Come on, haven't I been around long enough that people can at least realize I wouldn't say THAT in seriousness?

As for the subtitles, no. It's just a cultural thing. For one thing, it's a pretty funny way to emphasize punchlines, but it's also an efficient method of summarizing news, and is useful for helping people understand the wide variety of dialects present in Japan, in the same way that English (or, at least USA) television will often sub reality shows when people are either whispering or speaking with a very strong, non-standard accent. There's even that one (American) commercial for tea where they sub a Chinese(? I don't remember the commercial that well) guy speaking English.

Why do they need subtitles?!

:lol:

I don't know about colleges in the states but if you study Japanese full time in a Swedish college, you're expected to study it actively 40 hours a week. That's about 8 hours a day, weekends not included. Safe to say, NO ONE studies that much because studying half the time is enough to get good grades on the tests... but 5 hours a week like people here are saying? Man, I'm happy I'm not part of the American school system...


EDIT: About subtitles, Japanese have them mostly for fun etc, it's not like they are included in serious stuff like dramas. Chinese movies how ever generally have subtitles since they can't understand each other. According to my friend who lives there, there's even two distinct dialects in Beijing where people of one might have trouble understanding the other. Now THAT'S convoluted.

Sebastian Wrote:Why do they need subtitles?!

:lol:

"Look at me, I don't need subtitles" :lol:

Tobberoth Wrote:EDIT: About subtitles, Japanese have them mostly for fun etc, it's not like they are included in serious stuff like dramas. Chinese movies how ever generally have subtitles since they can't understand each other. According to my friend who lives there, there's even two distinct dialects in Beijing where people of one might have trouble understanding the other. Now THAT'S convoluted.

That's why I was surprised, I never saw them in Anime or Drama, and how dialects are very distinct isn't really a surprise as I've experienced that many times.

Subtitles explained, thanks.

At the JLPT 2008 I met a guy from the Netherlands who`s been studying Japanese for nearly three years. He told me that he`s reading Murakami Haruki in Japanese just for fun. That doesn`t mean that he`s fluent yet (I don`t know how to define fluent), but that`s a level that should be enough to function in Japan as an adult. He still has problems with newspapers though, so he estimated his level to be still under JLPT1.

I`ve been studying Japanese on my own for three years on and off. I can hold a conversation in Japanese for hours (on any topic), but have trouble following the news. Reading easy novels like 世界の中心で、愛をさけぶ　is possible, though it still takes some effort to ignore that words that I don`t know. If I had studied properly for three years I should be able to read these novels without a problem. May sound impressive, but that`s not even close to native-speaker level.

Thanks watashimo
Check this guys (AJATT posted it on twitter) http://www.antimoon.com/other/myths-country.htm
I found it very related to the topic and an example of what I meant by right "methods" and "tools".

5 years, including a 3-week-stay (after 2-3 years) in a small language class in Japan.

undead_saif Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:Remember there's a difference from being a functional adult in Japanese society, and being an interpreter for businesses and/or governmental agencies.

I'm aiming for the functional adult.

Ok, Honestly I don't know which one is Harder to achieve, which one is?
A functional adult means business and everyday life fluency and literacy, right?

Interpretation is an incredibly demanding job. Most interpreters burn out after 3-4 years. To begin with, they must know a great deal of industry lingo, all depending on the industry in which they are doing interpretation (computers, medicine, marketing, aerospace, etc.). Second, the constant code-switching is simply very taxing on the human brain.

Translation, on the other hand, is much more relaxing. You have the time to look up words you don't know, and to deliberate over the exact meanings of certain sentences (this is not a luxury of an interpreter - who must come up with polished translations of whatever is being said instantaneously!).

That said, however, I do a lot of translation (read: most of my jobs) that goes way beyond the knowledge level of my friends and family. I.e, they can't understand what I'm translating, even when they read it in Japanese (then again, my family back home in the States doesn't understand it when reading it in English...).

My point is, translators and interpreters are called upon to have a level of fluency above and beyond that of their 'average' co-citizens (is that a word??).

-----------------------

But, to get back to the question raised by the OP - it all depends.

It depends on many factors - the commitment of the learner, whether or not they are living in an immersion environment, the quality of their study materials, etc. But, I would say that, with dedication, good materials, and living in Japan - you could achieve a strong level of fluency (listening, speaking, reading and writing - all at a level comparable to a high-school/college-level Japanese person) within 5 years.

What can I say - this is a tough language!

がんばりゃ！

Tobberoth Wrote:I don't know about colleges in the states but if you study Japanese full time

I've bolded the incorrect assumption here. There are likely some Japanese majors who do indeed study it full time, but most people who "study a language in college" do it as a minor at best and more likely an elective, which translates to roughly one class on the subject per academic term. As a result, there's something else that they're expected to study full time, and any additional Japanese study gets worked in around the corners of that.

~J

EnjukuBlack Wrote:co-citizens (is that a word??).

So long as the idea gets across.. yes

don't worry korena is harder than japanese.

In 18 months, Khatzmoto (from AJATT) went from no Japanese at all to getting a full-time job at Sony in Japan that was meant for native speakers. On top of that, his keigo was better than most of the native speakers applying for the job at the Boston Career Forum.

So fluency with 18 months of hardcore studying is possible.

Nukemarine Wrote:Remember there's a difference from being a functional adult in Japanese society, and being an interpreter for businesses and/or governmental agencies.

I'm aiming for the functional adult.

Now that I've read a few more of the threads related to fluency, it seems there are about as many definitions of fluency as there are people registered on the forum. I'd say functional adult is what I am aiming for too. I think it is entirely possible without stepping foot in a classroom.

woodwojr Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:I don't know about colleges in the states but if you study Japanese full time

I've bolded the incorrect assumption here. There are likely some Japanese majors who do indeed study it full time, but most people who "study a language in college" do it as a minor at best and more likely an elective, which translates to roughly one class on the subject per academic term. As a result, there's something else that they're expected to study full time, and any additional Japanese study gets worked in around the corners of that.

~J

Good point. Half the students are just trying to scrape by with a B- and go on to study basket weaving or something. Same goes for any discipline. People who want to study physics are probably bored to death in the first year class, but I found it difficult. I think that is why so many people find it painful to take classes. They have to teach to the middle of the pack. You have to get to the second or third year to get to a point where the material is taught fast enough and a high enough level to be challenging. That is why I am learning on my own rather than signing up for the first year class I could take for free. I'm hoping to learn enough on my own to slide into the second year class. It will be a fun experiment to see if my methods will get me there.

EnjukuBlack Wrote:But, I would say that, with dedication, good materials, and <b>living in Japan</b> - you could achieve a strong level of fluency (listening, speaking, reading and writing - all at a level comparable to a high-school/college-level Japanese person) within 5 years.
がんばりゃ!

About living in Japan...
from this like http://www.antimoon.com/other/myths-country.htm
"living in a foreign country simply does not make you speak the country's language well."
and "being in a foreign country often forces you to say incorrect sentences," so I think it's better to immerse yourself in your country, what are yor thoughts?

Both in the country and out of the country immersion have positives and negatives. Out of the country it takes a lot of effort to create the immersion environment. In the country it takes effort to cultivate friendships that are strong enough for the person to feel comfortable in telling you when you get something wrong. One benefit of in country immersion that is hard to replace is the cultural competency. Manga, Jdrama, novels, etc. can give you some idea of the culture, but it can't replace actual experience.

The single most important factor in learning anything is the ability to focus the mind. One hour of focused attention can equal eight hours of daydreaming while your eyes scan over words. Focusing the mind doesn't come naturally. It has to be developed through some training.

I believe its more like a natural ability that somehow school stripe us from somewhere during infancy, ehehe.

***

The last post from Steve Kaufman fits perfectly in this thread.
One of the things he talks about is that pronunciation is a thing of vanity.

Antimoon cite the "latinos" that never learn "perfect" English, but what I miss from the article is that these "latinos" probably have much more pride in speaking proper, high quality Spanish and couldn't care less about their English.

Even after acquiring "broken" English, if they rework it, they'd probably get better.

My reason for choosing immersion at my home is that it is cheap. If I were to move to japan, I'd probably work all day just to get by, leaving little time to learn actual Japanese. What I want to do is something like Katz did. Go there _after_ acquiring the language, so I can perfect it while leading a comfortable life.

baldy514 Wrote:Manga, Jdrama, novels, etc. can give you some idea of the culture, but it can't replace actual experience.

Thanks for the explaination

bodhisamaya Wrote:The single most important factor in learning anything is the ability to focus the mind. One hour of focused attention can equal eight hours of daydreaming while your eyes scan over words. Focusing the mind doesn't come naturally. It has to be developed through some training.

Wow, you've just hit the nail! That's what I'm struggling with for 2 years! not only in Japanese but in my school and uni, I wanted to mention it here but forgot, it's a very good advice, just like what you said, 1 hour can be better than a WHOLE day and I mean it!!!
Thanks for the advice, I think I'm gonna try not to force myelf to focus but to train myself gradually, if this really works someday when I work (yea even after years) you'll get your present lol

I would recommend training in Shinay ("calm abiding" or watching the breath) Meditation. It is taught mostly in Buddhist temples but is not really religious in nature. You can get non-sectarian books on the subject. When I was young I couldn't focus for more than five minutes. My school thought I was retarded and put me in special-ed classes because of it.

bodhisamaya, thanks a lot for that advice! I've seen that kind of stuff on TV but never thought about using it, even though I believe it. Thanks again

undead_saif Wrote:

EnjukuBlack Wrote:But, I would say that, with dedication, good materials, and <b>living in Japan</b> - you could achieve a strong level of fluency (listening, speaking, reading and writing - all at a level comparable to a high-school/college-level Japanese person) within 5 years.
がんばりゃ!

About living in Japan...
from this like http://www.antimoon.com/other/myths-country.htm
"living in a foreign country simply does not make you speak the country's language well."

Well, I certainly agree that just being here isn't enough to make you fluent in Japanese. I have plenty of acquaintances who have been here 10 years or more and yet can only speak simplistic, broken Japanese. It is simply not a priority for them - they can get by with their minimal language abilities and that's all that matters to them.

If you look at my quote above, you'll note that I felt that living in Japan, along with dedication, is what is essential.

undead_saif Wrote:and "being in a foreign country often forces you to say incorrect sentences," so I think it's better to immerse yourself in your country, what are yor thoughts?

Although I have realized from time to time that there are things I habitually say in Japanese that are wrong, and no Japanese person has yet corrected me (as mentioned in the antimoon article), I am completely surrounded by real, living, contemporary Japanese. Because of this, I am constantly hearing what your average Japanese person, in a variety of cultural situations, is saying on a daily basis, and, like any Japanese child learning Japanese, am presented with ample opportunities of proper usage, which allows for self-correction. This is quite often very different from the Japanese you'll hear in a Jpop song, or read in a manga, or hear in anime, or look up in a textbook...

In other words, I now know what to say to acquaintances during New Year's, or what to say to a family on the event of a birth in the family, or how to speak to the head of my company at a bar, or what to say at a co-worker's funeral to his bereaved family, or how to introduce myself to neighbors upon moving into a new house, etc., etc.

And the reason I know how to do all this is because I've lived it, listening very closely to the Japanese people around me - what do they say? how do they say it? what bodily mannerisms do they employ?

I didn't pick it up from a movie (which is scripted and acted), or from a Jpop song (which is lyrical and (sometimes) poetic), or from a manga or anime (which is creative fiction), or from a textbook (which, as Katz puts it 'suck').

Although I'm not putting down the 'immersion in your own country' approach - I admire anyone who has the perseverance to do so - I just feel that immersion in-country can't be beat for it's authenticity and constant exposure.

If you did do 3 hours a day nonstop, learn the kanji with Heisig, and find an effective way to learn the language (ie, sentences and stuff), read kana books out loud (manga is good practice)... and NOT taking classes....

I don't see why you wouldn't be fluent in about 1.5 years at a very competent level.