It seems to come down to two programmes- "Japanese", produced by codefromtokyo, and "Kotoba!". "Japanese" is £12 (sterling), while "Kotoba!" is free.

My question is, does anyone have experience of both of these programmes? Which is better, and if as expected "Japanese" is, is it really worth the extra cash as opposed to the free "Kotoba!"?

They both use edict, so they both aren't very good. On the plus side, kotoba is free.

There are plenty of "real" dictionaries on the appstore, they all cost more though (>$20).

Jarvik7 Wrote:They both use edict, so they both aren't very good. On the plus side, kotoba is free.

There are plenty of "real" dictionaries on the appstore, they all cost more though (>$20).

Edict is just as good as any real dictionary as long as you have the appropriate experience with the language to make some basic decisions about the things you look up.

As far as Japanese and Kotoba are concerned, I have this to say about each of them:

Japanese: I got this on the one day it was free and I haven't really used it much. It's built on edict and contains some useful things like groups of words (albeit with a lot of mistakes and/or red herrings), expressions, proverbs, etc. There seems to be a way to create your own vocabulary lists within the program itself so I guess you can study certain words and/or build quick access lists for frequently forgotten compounds. There are some JLPT tidbits in here too, basically just a countdown to the next test along with incomplete vocabulary lists.

Kotoba: This one has few features, but I find it more useful because it seems to be a little faster than Japanese and it contains a lot more words and expressions than the former. Why? I can't imagine. They both rely on edict, but Kotoba seems to parse the full edict file while Japanese didn't. Which is odd, considering that I frequently open my dictionary for uncommon words rather than common words. Kotoba is definitely the stronger contender here. However, Kotoba is also very barebones. It's a GUI on top of the edict file (and it doesn't download database updates, so it uses an out-of-date version of edict AFAIK) so all you can do is search and possibly find what you're looking for. However, I find things maybe 8 of 10 times in Kotoba/edict enough to understand what I'm looking at or searching for.

You can't beat free. I'd go with Kotoba.

Neither is a killer app though.

I agree with the comments posted here so far.

After downloading and trying out several different dictionary apps, I've settled (for the time being) on Kotoba. It's quick, simple, and has yet to come up empty on any of the searches I've done on it (and I've made a point looking up some unusual/rare words).

It's not the greatest app, but it does what it was made to do with a clean, simple interface.

And the free part doesn't hurt, either.

Now, if I can just find a decent kanji dictionary that won't break my bank...

Jarvik7 Wrote:There are plenty of "real" dictionaries on the appstore, they all cost more though (>$20).

I wouldn't mind paying >$20 for a "real" dictionary, as compared with several 万円 for a standalone device. Plus, I always carry my iphone, and often don't bother to carry my jisho. So, out of the "real" dictionaries, any recommendations?

If you're serious about Japanese, you should consider investing in a good dictionary like the green goddess or daijirin, and then using idic to view it.

Eijiro (英辞郎) appears to be available for the Iphone/Ipod.

http://www.eijiro.jp/

gibosi Wrote:Eijiro (英辞郎) appears to be available for the Iphone/Ipod.

http://www.eijiro.jp/

Eijiro is very useful, but not as a primary dictionary. All of the major dictionaries are on the Japanese Appstore. I use both Daijirin and Koujien (J-J). I believe the "green goddess" (J-E/E-J) is also on there.

Like resolve said you're better off getting EPWING dictionaries and using iDic for iphone, since you can use the same files on your computer. EPWING dictionaries are much more expensive than the Appstore versions though (unless you do something illegal ).

resolve Wrote:If you're serious about Japanese, you should consider investing in a good dictionary like the green goddess or daijirin, and then using idic to view it.

This makes sense, but we're talking about an iPod/iPhone device. I mean, when I'm out and about and need to look up a word, edict usually is just the ticket because I need to either decipher something cryptic or move on, or I need to figure out a word to say in Japanese to get what I want.

If I'm actually sitting down and studying, I'm either in front of a computer, or in a library, both of which have a lot of options for more comprehensive dictionaries. I also have an electronic dictionary that is small enough to carry around pretty much everywhere if I have the intention of studying. However, if I'm out and about and get caught on a random word, edict is typically the more useful option because it's random potpurri of meanings culled from crowdsourcing (basically) will often help me figure out whatever it is that's tripped me up before a classical dictionary would.

If you're seriously thinking about say, using an iPod or iPhone exclusively as your dictionary for any prolonged study, I'd recommend getting an electronic dictionary. Battery life and screen real estate, not to mention speed, are better unless it's something random when you're out and about.

And, if you have an internet connection, use Jisho.org's iPhone interface. It's really, really slick.

In my experience, E-J with EDICT is 100% useless. You will always get a ton of matches with no way to tell which word is the correct one, thanks to (misleading) one word definitions and no example sentences. The only way it could ever come in useful is if you knew the word, forgot, and just needed to jog your memory.

I do agree that it's better than nothing if you just need to look up a Japanese word quickly while on the go, but it's not like using something like the "green goddess" would be much slower.

To all the EDICT supporters who say "well if it's so bad then you should become part of the community and help fix it": EDICT is fundamentally flawed, it cannot be fixed. Languages are not 1:1 so unless Breen starts making the definitions explanatory instead of like a glossary, there is no reason to contribute. Even if that happened I see little reason to spend my time working on it, I already have professional dictionaries on hand.

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Damnit, fabrice needs to move that report link somewhere else. It looks too much like reply

Jarvik7 Wrote:In my experience, E-J with EDICT is 100% useless. You will always get a ton of matches with no way to tell which word is the correct one, thanks to (misleading) one word definitions and no example sentences. The only way it could ever come in useful is if you knew the word, forgot, and just needed to jog your memory.

I do agree that it's better than nothing if you just need to look up a Japanese word quickly while on the go, but it's not like using something like the "green goddess" would be much slower.

To all the EDICT supporters who say "well if it's so bad then you should become part of the community and help fix it": EDICT is fundamentally flawed, it cannot be fixed. Languages are not 1:1 so unless Breen starts making the definitions explanatory instead of like a glossary, there is no reason to contribute. Even if that happened I see little reason to spend my time working on it, I already have professional dictionaries on hand.

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Damnit, fabrice needs to move that report link somewhere else. It looks too much like reply

English look-ups are a little less useful, yes, but the more experience you have, the easier it is to determine which entry applies to the situation at hand. Sometimes you can tell by just looking at the kanji, although I agree, explanatory entries would be nice.

The more experience you have, the more likely you're just going to ask the other speaker to explain the word instead of holding up the conversation fumbling around with a dictionary.

resolve Wrote:The more experience you have, the more likely you're just going to ask the other speaker to explain the word instead of holding up the conversation fumbling around with a dictionary.

Yeah, I eventually stopped carrying my denshijisho around with me, and I haven't really felt the need to pay for iDic or any of the pro stuff for my iPod even though I've always got it with me. The only time I really reference the dictionaries (EPWING on laptop) now are when I'm doing translation work or studying.

I wouldn't say that JDic is 100% useless. It really all depends on what you are using it for.

As a learning device, it has it's limitations, as you've pointed out - no distinction between words with similar meanings, searches returning loads of words (which one do I use?!?), etc.

But, as a dictionary for advanced users, it works quite well. Frankly, I don't really need example sentences anymore to disambiguate between valid vs. dud returns on my searches. Also, there are a lot of words that I learned in Japanese and thus have no real, conventional English equivalent for stored in my head. I know what it means and can translate the gist of it, but I often rely on JDic to give me a 'standard' English equivalent.

And, of course, when it comes to translation, the specialized dictionaries can come in real handy. All of the translation work I do is in the computer industry (mostly microprocessor programming and image processing), and the computer/telecomms dictionary has come in very handy for giving me the industry standard terminology. Granted, it is compiled from user submissions, so you have to be aware that there are possible mistranslations, but then, any translator worth his/her salt will double-check any terms that they don't already know.

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In regard to another comment made, I looked for Kenkyuusha's English-Japanese/Japanese-English dictionary on the iTunes App store, and found that it is, indeed, available - but only as an abriged edition. It looks to have about half the entries of the full version.

Of course, that makes it a little more financially approachable - only ￥3600 compared to the ￥37,800 for the dead-tree version or ￥22,000 for the EPWING on CD version.

EnjukuBlack Wrote:In regard to another comment made, I looked for Kenkyuusha's English-Japanese/Japanese-English dictionary on the iTunes App store, and found that it is, indeed, available - but only as an abriged edition. It looks to have about half the entries of the full version.

Of course, that makes it a little more financially approachable - only ￥3600 compared to the ￥37,800 for the dead-tree version or ￥22,000 for the EPWING on CD version.

Wonder if I can buy this in the U.S.

I find myself using several dictionary tools on a daily basis. At home (my favourite setup) it's Apple's Dictionary files and an EDICT based application for MacOS. At work it's the built-in dictionary in my Outlook (soooo sloooow) and ALC for translating into Japanese. On the move it's my trusty Casio EX-Word (easily THE most heavily used gadget in my possession) and - since recently - it's iPhone's 'Japanese'.

They all have good points and shortcomings. I do love EDICT, though, and I'm not giving it up, for the following reasons:

- I never use it as an E -> J tool, only the other way around

- As some of the above posters, I know the language well enough not to be mislead by various meanings and absence of context. When in doubt, I double-check elsewhere.

- It allows you to quickly look up words with UNKNOWN components. E.g., imagine I don't know the reading for 葛 and am looking up a word like 葛藤. On my Casio I will try to guess it first (けい?!) but will soon give up and go into a kanji look-up, find 葛 and then go into a list of 熟語 and PRAY that word would be there. Or get the reading from the kanji look-up and glue it together with 藤. No matter how quick you are at manipulating the buttons, this still takes time. On EDICT, though, I can type in 藤 (for which I do know the reading) and scroll down a long list of words to find 葛藤 - infinitely faster.

- Looking up an ateji or anything with irregular readings on Casio is a horrendous task. I was looking for something really simple the other day: 人前. I looked at じんぜん、にんぜん、じんまえ、にんまえ and finally arrived at ひとまえ. Silly me, but that's not the point: on EDICT you can type in the components, glue them together and not bother about the readings.

- the MacOS EDICT application automatically looks up any word that you select and copy on a webpage or in a document.

Now, most of the above I can also do with iPhone's 'Japanese', much faster than on my Casio.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

resolve Wrote:The more experience you have, the more likely you're just going to ask the other speaker to explain the word instead of holding up the conversation fumbling around with a dictionary.

Yeah, I eventually stopped carrying my denshijisho around with me, and I haven't really felt the need to pay for iDic or any of the pro stuff for my iPod even though I've always got it with me. The only time I really reference the dictionaries (EPWING on laptop) now are when I'm doing translation work or studying.

Same here. It's a nice feeling

Serge Wrote:I find myself using several dictionary tools on a daily basis. At home (my favourite setup) it's Apple's Dictionary files and an EDICT based application for MacOS. At work it's the built-in dictionary in my Outlook (soooo sloooow) and ALC for translating into Japanese. On the move it's my trusty Casio EX-Word (easily THE most heavily used gadget in my possession) and - since recently - it's iPhone's 'Japanese'.

They all have good points and shortcomings. I do love EDICT, though, and I'm not giving it up, for the following reasons:

- I never use it as an E -> J tool, only the other way around

- As some of the above posters, I know the language well enough not to be mislead by various meanings and absence of context. When in doubt, I double-check elsewhere.

- It allows you to quickly look up words with UNKNOWN components. E.g., imagine I don't know the reading for 葛 and am looking up a word like 葛藤. On my Casio I will try to guess it first (けい?!) but will soon give up and go into a kanji look-up, find 葛 and then go into a list of 熟語 and PRAY that word would be there. Or get the reading from the kanji look-up and glue it together with 藤. No matter how quick you are at manipulating the buttons, this still takes time. On EDICT, though, I can type in 藤 (for which I do know the reading) and scroll down a long list of words to find 葛藤 - infinitely faster.

- Looking up an ateji or anything with irregular readings on Casio is a horrendous task. I was looking for something really simple the other day: 人前. I looked at じんぜん、にんぜん、じんまえ、にんまえ and finally arrived at ひとまえ. Silly me, but that's not the point: on EDICT you can type in the components, glue them together and not bother about the readings.

- the MacOS EDICT application automatically looks up any word that you select and copy on a webpage or in a document.

Now, most of the above I can also do with iPhone's 'Japanese', much faster than on my Casio.

Which MacOS EDICT shell are you using?

JEDict - a very old one and probably not the best. Yet it does the trick and I can't be bothered to look for a replacement.