how does the particle "nante" work and add meaning to sentences?
is there a good website which explains this with lots of examples?

Machine_Gun_Cat Wrote:how does the particle "nante" work and add meaning to sentences?
is there a good website which explains this with lots of examples?

何て isn't a particle. It's just a word. think "何って" if you know how って works. Here's some examples:

なんて事だ！- What an (awful) thing (to happen)!
それなんて要らない！ - Such a thing is unneeded!

It can be translated as "such a" in most cases. It gives a sort of negative connoation to the object your talking about.

Cool, thanks Tobberoth

There's also a grammar/sentence pattern なんて~んだろう (or なんと~のだろう). This one doesn't have a negative connotation. It kind of adds emphasis (my textbook rather briefly defines the meaning as 「非常に」という意味). Here's a random example from the textbook:

Quote:「わあ、なんてきれいなんでしょう。こんなきれいな花は見たことないわ。」

and one from google:

Quote:デレデレする女の子はなんてかわいいんだろう！

(See also なんと~ことか, same meaning, formal written style.)

tokyostyle Wrote:"Both なんか and なんて can follow a noun, with the meaning of 'things (or people) like～.' Only なんて, however, can follow a sentence. なんて is a contraction of many forms such as などは、などと、などというのは or the like."

例文： 助詞なんて難しいと思った。

So the idea is not just "I thought particles were difficult", but particles and some other similar things.

Interestingly, など doesn't always mean "more than one thing": see this article by Tom Gally. In the case of 助詞なんて my inclination would be to read it as something along the lines of "crap like particles" -- the speaker might have other things than 助詞 in mind but probably doesn't.

I find it useful, with words with abstract meanings such as なんて , to quickly browse many example sentences.

http://eow.alc.co.jp/%e3%81%aa%e3%82%93%e3%81%a6/UTF-8/

なんて is like the particle は but it usually marks an undesirable object. Next time you go to the combini try saying 袋なんていらないよ

bucko Wrote:なんて is like the particle は but it usually marks an undesirable object. Next time you go to the combini try saying 袋なんていらないよ

That sounds a bit odd. The negative connotations of なんて are pretty strong, a line like that sounds like "You think I'm stupid? Who the hell would need a bag!". Well, not really that bad but still. It sounds as if someone working there offered a bag and you said "Hmpf, I need no such thing".

I don't see the negative connotations as being that strong (なんてすごい◯◯, for example), but it's always pretty forceful; I would also recommend against saying that unless you want confused and slightly put-off register staff.

~J

Tobberoth Wrote:

bucko Wrote:なんて is like the particle は but it usually marks an undesirable object. Next time you go to the combini try saying 袋なんていらないよ

That sounds a bit odd. The negative connotations of なんて are pretty strong, a line like that sounds like "You think I'm stupid? Who the hell would need a bag!". Well, not really that bad but still. It sounds as if someone working there offered a bag and you said "Hmpf, I need no such thing".

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I was daring him to use 袋なんていらないよ at a combini to see the reaction the clerk would give. You're right, it'd be a bit like, "WTF? I don't need no bag!"

I apologise to the OP if he actually used this phrase at a combini and got a death stare!

なんていい天気だろう！

Hey man, this is some great fuckin' weather we got here!

~J

Just today I was listening to the teacher explain an English grammar point to the students using this Japanese. And it wasn't negative or harsh (though it clearly has that ability as well).

How ~!
なんて〜んだ！

for example:
彼女はなんて美しいんだ！
How beautiful she is!

She also taught:
彼女はなんて美しい女の子なんだ！
What a beautiful girl she is!

I can't say this is a grammar point I personally use very often. I do use なんか as a filler quite a bit, though.

Oh, and single biggest use of なんて is in the "what?" sense. Of course, that isn't related to the grammar but I thought I'd throw that out too. As in 何って言ったの？ ＝ なんて？

何って(言った) is unrelated to なんて in the sense that this thread is talking about.
The above is a construction of 何 and って(と), while the thread is about a fossilized expression. なんか is also not related to 何か.

Also, なんて and なんか are the same thing, just with a difference in the forcefulness.

なんか→なんて→など
(soft → hard)

I think it's a bad idea to think of things such as this in terms of an English word like "how". You should instead just think of the nuance (negative or unexpected feeling) it gives to a sentence. I remember the first time I read なんか way back when it was in the sentence 「私はなんか天使じゃないよ」. You can't just plug "how" in there and expect it to make sense. "*****" is a better thing to plug in in terms of meaning, but it gets the tone wrong (swearing like a sailor yay).

So, for "なんて美しい", the girl is beautiful to the point that it's surprising. For "袋なんていらねえよ", it's expressing the negative feeling you have because the clerk dared to offer you a bag.

(for the love of dog, stop thinking of Japanese in terms of English)

Jawful Wrote:Just today I was listening to the teacher explain an English grammar point to the students using this Japanese. And it wasn't negative or harsh (though it clearly has that ability as well).

How ~!
なんて〜んだ！

for example:
彼女はなんて美しいんだ！
How beautiful she is!

She also taught:
彼女はなんて美しい女の子なんだ！
What a beautiful girl she is!

These are some good examples. It shows that なんて it not really a "negative" particle, but more of an emotive one. In otherword, in a stiff, formal environment, or in a written document it may be inappropriate to use.

Right. However, the "negative" view, I think, comes from the fact that (at least in my experience) using なんて with something neutral is generally a negative. Consider なんてこと, a decided negative, while こと is about as neutral as you can get.

~J

Jarvik7 Wrote:何って(言った) is unrelated to なんて in the sense that this thread is talking about.
The above is a construction of 何 and って(と), while the thread is about a fossilized expression.

Thanks. I thought I had made that clear when I said "of course that's unrelated."

Quote:(for the love of dog, stop thinking of Japanese in terms of English)

While I agree with you in principle, we are on an English forum trying to discuss the meaning of a Japanese grammar construction in English... so the point is to show various meanings as they might appear in English. THAT'S how we can get the "feeling" or "nuance" from it. At least when having a conversation about it in English. We take what we already know, see as many examples as possible, and hopefully as we hear it in real life, it'll make things more clear.

Quote:While I agree with you in principle, we are on an English forum trying to discuss the meaning of a Japanese grammar construction in English... so the point is to show various meanings as they might appear in English. THAT'S how we can get the "feeling" or "nuance" from it. At least when having a conversation about it in English. We take what we already know, see as many examples as possible, and hopefully as we hear it in real life, it'll make things more clear.

I meant it as "don't try to equate a Japanese word/expression with an English one that you can just plug in." ("なんて is like 'how'") Languages aren't 1:1. That doesn't mean that it can't be explained in English though.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

Quote:While I agree with you in principle, we are on an English forum trying to discuss the meaning of a Japanese grammar construction in English... so the point is to show various meanings as they might appear in English. THAT'S how we can get the "feeling" or "nuance" from it. At least when having a conversation about it in English. We take what we already know, see as many examples as possible, and hopefully as we hear it in real life, it'll make things more clear.

I meant it as "don't try to equate a Japanese word/expression with an English one that you can just plug in." ("なんて is like 'how'") Languages aren't 1:1. That doesn't mean that it can't be explained in English though.

Don't think anyone was doing that. But I agree with you.

tokyostyle Wrote:

Jawful Wrote:Don't think anyone was doing that. But I agree with you.

Nope, no one did ... not even in the first response!

Quote:It can be translated as "such a" in most cases.

It says "most cases." No one is trying to say it's a 1 to 1 thing with no alternative translations/meanings.

Anyway, those "it's like English X" hints can be occasionally useful, as a hook to use to remember the grammar point, and a reassurance that this language wasn't designed by space aliens. Sometimes there's a good enough matchup that the English grammar serves as a reminder that actually these three apparently disparate usages of the same bit of Japanese grammar do have an underlying commonality.

Never found anything which was a decent equivalent for ちなみに, though. When I first learnt that there were 10 example sentences of the form X . ちなみに、Y -- and the most natural way to link the two sentences in English was something different in every single case :-)

First line of Gokusen 3 ep 1

勇気あるわよね あの３Ｄに１人で乗り込むなんて。

omg thread necro.. sorry

taedfolk Wrote:First line of Gokusen 3 ep 1

勇気あるわよね あの３Ｄに１人で乗り込むなんて。

omg thread necro.. sorry

lol

This song

has lines like
友達なんてありがとう
I saw this translated as "thank you for saying I'm your friend"
So here なんて is sort of like と ???

I saw this post about なんて here:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/vie...hp?id=2430
I'll repost it just for fun:
【なんて】１　　　（＝「なんと」）　　　　　　　（非常に省略して引用）
　「なんと」
　　　なんて言っているんですか。
　「なんというＮ」
　　　あの人はなんていう人ですか。
　　　なんていう会社にお勤めですか。
　　　彼、なんて町に住んでいるんだっけ。
　「なんというＮだ」
　　　なんてことだ。ひどい話だ。（事故のニュースを聞いて）
　　　あなたってなんて人なの。
　　程度のすごさに驚いたりあきれたりした気持ちを表す　
　「なんということはない」
　　　このぐらいのケガ、なんてことないさ。
　　「たいしたことではない」という気持ち
　「なんと…のだろう」
　　　なんてすばらしいんだろう。
　　感嘆の気持ちをこめて表現する

【なんて】２
１ Ｎなんて
　　　あなたなんて大嫌い。
　　　そんな馬鹿げた話なんて、誰も信じませんよ。
　　　あの人の言うことなんて、嘘に決まっています。
　軽視する気持ちを伴って主題として取り立てる　くだけた話しことば　　　　（＝なんか）

２…なんて　　　
　　　みんなには時間を守れなんて言ったけど、そういった本人が遅刻してしまった。
　　　息子が大学進学は嫌だなんて言い出して困っている。
　　　私が彼をだましたなんて言っているらしいけど、彼のほうこそ嘘をついているんです。
　　　あやまれば許してもらえるなんて甘い考えは捨てなさい。
　　　まさか、親に頼めば借金を払ってもらえるなんて思っているんじゃないでしょうね。
　後に発言・思考の動詞や名詞　　その内容を表す　　意外・軽視の気持ち
　「などと」のくだけた言い方

３…なんて
　Ｎ／Ｎａ（だ）なんて (Ｎａはナ形容詞、Ａはイ形容詞）
　Ａ／Ｖ　なんて
　　　一家そろって海外旅行だなんて、うらやましいですね。
　　　あなたにそんなことを言うなんて、実にひどい男だ。
　　　こんなところであなたに会うなんて、びっくりしましたよ。
　　　こんな安い給料でまじめに働くなんてばからしい。
　　　あんな怠け者が一生懸命働きたいなんて、嘘に決まっているでしょう。
　　　この吹雪の中を出ていくなんて、命を捨てに行くようなものだ。
　後に「うらやましい」「ひどい」などの評価を表す表現　　評価の対象
　意外だと驚く気持ちや軽視する気持ちを伴うことが多い　　　　　　　　　　　（＝などというのは）

I understand definition 1 pretty well.
I understand sense 1 of definition 2 but not the others.