Hey guys, regarding Japanese grammar, I thought A Dictionary of basic japanese grammar
is the way to go to learn grammar depending on so search I made on japanese grammar books.
But after taking a look at the book I became worried about how the topics are arranged alphabetically (not arranged by simplicity) and it has more than 630 pages (so I thought it can't be that useful until I finish it all, which will take time).
I read about Tae Kim's guide and AJATT (read the intro and it looked like will teach grammar) here, and I got confused, which one should I consider? and why should I use A Dictionary of basic Japanese grammar over Tae Kim's? (some ppl recommended it over Tae Kim's) Any other notes about grammar learning are appreciated. thnx

IMO, Tae Kim is good. I never read the Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, but if its arrange *alphabetically*, that can't possibly be very natural or progressive...

The dictionary is a dictionary, you're not supposed to learn it in order just like no one mines a dictionary for vocabulary in order. Use the dictionary to explain grammar you see, to get really good example sentences. Use learning material like textbooks and tim kaes guide to get the progression.

Tobberoth Wrote:The dictionary is a dictionary, you're not supposed to learn it in order just like no one mines a dictionary for vocabulary in order. Use the dictionary to explain grammar you see, to get really good example sentences. Use learning material like textbooks and tim kaes guide to get the progression.

so u think I should use Tae Kim's guide to study grammar and get more depth from aDoBJG? and what about AJATT way?

If you want something that introduces grammar in some plausible order you might want to look at more generic 'textbooks' (which will also introduce some vocab while they're doing it). On the other hand if you want to look up some particular thing you don't understand that's what a dictionary is for. NB that there's also an 'intermediate' and 'advanced' volume.

I liked having the DBJG as a second opinion on whatever bit of grammar my main textbook/classes were going through. For instance, you could go through grammar in the order that Tae Kim introduces it, and refer to what DBJG says on each topic for further information/contrast/another explanation.

I'll do Tae Kim's + http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Manga-Way...1880656906

No idea if this is a good combination (I'm a beginner) but it's fun for sure...

stoked Wrote:I'll do Tae Kim's + http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Manga-Way...1880656906

No idea if this is a good combination (I'm a beginner) but it's fun for sure...

Yes. I'm quite enjoying Japanese the Manga Way as well.

A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar is a great resource, but it's really, really boring and not meant for reading. Just reference.

For me it's mostly Tae Kim's and Japanese in Mangaland.

And can someone please tell my Japanese friend that by using Japanese in Mangaland, I won't speak like a manga character. She is honestly paranoid that I'll only know "manga Japanese" whatever the hell that is, I thought it was Japanese.

Remind her that people have learned English watching Woody Woodpecker and soap operas?

Personally I did read ADoBJG from cover to cover and it was immensely useful. (I had a lot of free time at my last baito)

Omnistegan Wrote:For me it's mostly Tae Kim's and Japanese in Mangaland.

And can someone please tell my Japanese friend that by using Japanese in Mangaland, I won't speak like a manga character. She is honestly paranoid that I'll only know "manga Japanese" whatever the hell that is, I thought it was Japanese.

Speaking as someone in this position, it's not some inescapable trap, but I find that I'm approaching fluency in situations in which I have to be really aggressive and unfriendly. This doesn't actually end up being that useful, which can create some confusion when I all of a sudden try to interact with someone (not that I end up being rude to them, but it takes some care to remember beforehand that I'm likely to have a great deal more trouble than I might think).

This depends, of course, on what kind of manga you read. Your friend is overreacting, but it's not totally baseless.

~J

Ok thnx , about the JLPT , which one is the best grammar source? cus after graduating (BSc Mechatronics Engineering) if I get an opportunity to work in Japan I will go (I call it "The Land of Robots"! lol) and can some one tell me about the 10,000 sentences method? thanks again...

Hi there

a dictionary of basic japanese grammar (and the intermediate dictionary too) is a wonderful reference book. the explanations are usually very clear and short, and it contains more example sentences than anything I've seen.

That said, it would be quite difficult to use if you are a complete beginner that lacks exposure to the language. When you have covered the ultimate basics, then it becomes incredibly useful. You can check up grammar points on the fly why you're watching anime or listening to audio. When I skim the japanese index I often find patterns I've heard a lot but didn't know what they meant. It's also good because there are a lot of corss-references: similar concepts etc are linked to each other. It's much more useful that a structured, step by step method for an immersion approach.

As far as Tae Kim's grammar is concerned, I can't stand it. I don't know why, but it bores me (I'd rather follow genki from beginning to end).

Another vote for Makino & Tsutsui. They brought considerable pain to my wallet, but I don't regret that for an instant. I've been fascinated by grammar since I was a (rather strange) child, so I can pick one of those volumes up and read it like a collection of short stories. That is also why the "grammar doesn't exist/no need to study grammar" school is not for me. I simply can't help studying it because it fascinates me.

I found Tae Kim useful as a beginner, and in the early days it was full of eye-openers for me as up to that point I'd studied the "-masu form first" way, and TK was a breath of fresh air. I've hardly referred to it since, however. Nevertheless, I consider it an asset in terms of web resources.

I use all of them along with Naoko Chino's other book "All About Particles". Tae Kim's Guide remains my main source but when I've got time to spare I'll go through and practice with Naoko's books which also helps with vocabulary. I'm still doing AJATT as well.

I started with tae-kim, but some of the facts he states are wrong. I feel that i know just enough to read ADBJG cover to cover, and i will do so. I've stopped RTK for now at ~1000 as i am bored hell with kanji.


If you guys want a quick book to get started with to get some fundamentals down, i recommend another free one "An introduction to Japanese.pdf" google that (im capped), it's by Michiell Kamerman i think he has more credibility than Tae Kim.Note i haven't used kamermans book, it just looked really well written.


And just a side note, there are many people who read dictionaries from cover to cover, they end up being very smart people. So there is nothing wrong with doing that.

I used Tae Kim's guide early on, but much like Heisig, the time to stop carrying the boat comes quickly.

I'd be interested in hearing what in there is wrong, given that when I read it I wasn't nearly experienced enough to be able to spot inaccuracies myself.

~J

Almost any reference work has errors and disputable points in it, and in the long run, I don't think these matter too much, as long as the greater part of it is worthwhile. We all live with misapprehensions even in regard to our own languages, and these get corrected over time. If they don't they probably aren't worth worrying about.

Liosama, I did exactly the same thing. At around 1000 I'd just had enough, and the thought of studying any longer made me depressed. I had quite a long gap, in fact, after which I started all over again and actually enjoyed doing so, being amazed at how much I'd retained. That gave me the impetus to push on and finish it. I don't think it's a bad thing. If you really still want to get the bloody things in your head, you will do so. And if you don't, well, it won't matter.

liosama Wrote:I started with tae-kim, but some of the facts he states are wrong. I feel that i know just enough to read ADBJG cover to cover, and i will do so. I've stopped RTK for now at ~1000 as i am bored hell with kanji.


If you guys want a quick book to get started with to get some fundamentals down, i recommend another free one "An introduction to Japanese.pdf" google that (im capped), it's by Michiell Kamerman i think he has more credibility than Tae Kim.Note i haven't used kamermans book, it just looked really well written.


And just a side note, there are many people who read dictionaries from cover to cover, they end up being very smart people. So there is nothing wrong with doing that.

You tell us that some of the facts Tae Kim states are wrong (without supporting this claim at all), then recommend a book you haven't read and suggest that reading a dictionary front to back is alright?

I don't believe you at all.

I would recommend you to gather example sentences from Tae Kim's guide for grammar points that interest you (for me it is generally "Wait.. haven't I heard that one before? What the heck does it mean?"), learn them and surround yourself with Japanese in the meantime. Reading (or listening to) sentences that use these grammar points in context really enforces what you learned.
The only thing I do not like about Tae Kim's guide is that some of the example sentences are a tad bit long. Other than that, way to go.

i think khatzumoto from AJATT still has the best idea:

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/on-grammar

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...no-grammar

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ot-exist-2

If you aren't going to become a book/magazine/copy editor, do you really need to know that many formal grammar rules?

All the grammar I learned in school (in English) was for nothing. I never use any of those formal grammar rules while reading, speaking, or writing. I draw upon experience in *speaking English* to determine what sounds correct. If you expose yourself to enough grammatically correct Japanese, you'll pick it up without even realizing it.

It's not an either/or equation. Just look through the different samples of grammar guides, and use them however you want to aid your understanding as you SRS sentences, breaking them down and understanding how their components fit together to form their meanings.

I recommend Japanese the Manga Way and DOBJG... and Google.

urpwnd Wrote:If you aren't going to become a book/magazine/copy editor, do you really need to know that many formal grammar rules?

All the grammar I learned in school (in English) was for nothing. I never use any of those formal grammar rules while reading, speaking, or writing. I draw upon experience in *speaking English* to determine what sounds correct. If you expose yourself to enough grammatically correct Japanese, you'll pick it up without even realizing it.

u know what, I've always told my sisters that in english I don't believe in grammar!! I just memorize grammatical rules to check up mu answers in exams, even in the exams that decided my university specialty. but I didn't forget that to get the ability to understand and produce english "naturally" I spent enormous time reading and listening to english! (about 9 years in school, a lot of web surfing and watching many many movies and series) of course it shouldn't take that much time with japanese as I'm older now but I think we have to read and understand the grammatical rule and THEN read and understand many sentences.

thanx for the help guys!

urpwnd Wrote:All the grammar I learned in school (in English) was for nothing. I never use any of those formal grammar rules while reading, speaking, or writing. I draw upon experience in *speaking English* to determine what sounds correct. If you expose yourself to enough grammatically correct Japanese, you'll pick it up without even realizing it.

Reminds me of writing copy. Type the way you talk to reach a broader audience.

tokyostyle Wrote:If you think you can "naturally" learn what a 20-year-old native speaker has to take classes for then I hope you enjoy your time in urpwnd-fantasy-land.

There's a such thing as unnatural learning?