I saw this earlier, and figured I'd add it FYI... Japan Times has a book targeted for Intermediate level Japanese learners just about writing business e-mails. The sample PDF is interesting in how it breaks down a typical "business apology" email. It's mostly in Japanese, with minimal En/Chn/Kor to help with the trickier bits.

http://bookclub.japantimes.co.jp/act/en/...84&lang=en

No idea how good it actually is, considering it's vintage 2005.

rich_f Wrote:I saw this earlier, and figured I'd add it FYI... Japan Times has a book targeted for Intermediate level Japanese learners just about writing business e-mails. The sample PDF is interesting in how it breaks down a typical "business apology" email. It's mostly in Japanese, with minimal En/Chn/Kor to help with the trickier bits.

http://bookclub.japantimes.co.jp/act/en/...84&lang=en

No idea how good it actually is, considering it's vintage 2005.

wow if there's a whole book about business emails I guess "Technical Writing" won't do much in Japan lol , I dunno if writing business emails is one of the subjects , but it looks like japan have most things different.

oh really? xD

mentat_kgs Wrote:Btw, I heard Mac Donald's offer training to sweep the floor. But that doesn't mean one cannot learn how to sweep the floor on its own.

There are right and wrong ways to use a broom. If you teach yourself, you'll find that out eventually. If someone else teaches you, you'll know right away.

If something as simple as sweeping can be that complex... Well, grammar is a lot more complex than sweeping.

wccrawford Wrote:

mentat_kgs Wrote:Btw, I heard Mac Donald's offer training to sweep the floor. But that doesn't mean one cannot learn how to sweep the floor on its own.

There are right and wrong ways to use a broom. If you teach yourself, you'll find that out eventually. If someone else teaches you, you'll know right away.

If something as simple as sweeping can be that complex... Well, grammar is a lot more complex than sweeping.

I consider it like shaving. When you start off, you think you're mimicking your dad (or mom, assuming her legs needed it). But it's the little advice you get later on that proves useful to have known early on: keep your face wet with soapy water 5 minutes prior to shaving (brushing during this time is a good time waster), shave with the grain prior to going against it, don't use a razor forever, wash off with cool water, alcohol rub after can help prevent infection. Stuff you may not have been told, may not have seen done but makes sense once you figure it out either own your own or via advice. Or you can just shave and end up looking like Edward James Olmos.

Yeah, I have had to teach people to sweep and mop. Ok, mainly it's telling them to quit looking like they're doing it and to actually do it (military life, what can you do about it). Sometimes it's saying using more than a push broom.

Wait, sorry, sorry, I went way off on a tangent to a silly comparison to grammar complexity. Carry on.

tokyostyle Wrote:My American friend just got fired from his brand new job here in Japan for, among other similar things, not being able to "properly" compose an email that is appropriate to a business setting. He will have only been there a month and is now in the process of packing for a rather unexpected move home. The Japanese written form is not some joke.

If you think you can "naturally" learn what a 20-year-old native speaker has to take classes for then I hope you enjoy your time in urpwnd-fantasy-land. Back here in the real world it is taken very seriously.

I'll comment on this. Your friend took a job where he was required to use a skill he did not possess. It could be akin to taking an engineering job and not knowing basic calculus. Like calculus, writing for Japanese business is a skill one would only need if apply for a job that required it. Also, I'm sure this was not the extent of his folly, as learning to communicate properly is not a skill that takes many years to learn... after you reach a certain level that is.

tokyostyle Wrote:

urpwnd Wrote:All the grammar I learned in school (in English) was for nothing.

Until you realize that Japanese is not English your entire point is invalid.

Japanese is not English, but business is business. I'm sure there are individuals who have been fired for mediocre writing skills at English speaking jobs as well.

Also, I've met many individuals whose compositional skills were far above my own who couldn't identify a gerund.

I'm not saying grammar is irrelevant, but you can get pretty far by learning, observing, and repeating patterns without a firm grasps of the mechanics.

Quote:There are right and wrong ways to use a broom. If you teach yourself, you'll find that out eventually. If someone else teaches you, you'll know right away.

This depends on the teacher and how long a person has actually been sweeping. If someone has never picked up a broom in his or her life all the explanation in the world won't help until they actually get a grasp on the instrument themselves, and feel something tangible to compare against the explanation given.

I think riding a bike would be a better analogy. Reading a book on it can help you understand the why, but you don't learn the how until get on it and ride.

tokyostyle Wrote:College graduates do not have to be taught how to answer the phone, how to compose e-mail, and how to talk to customers.

Every single job I've ever had that required me to answer the phone (even the software developer job I'm doing right now) has had instruction on how to answer the phone. Usually it's just and hour-long video, and it's pretty simple, but that's still teaching.

And yes, this is a valid analogy since the Japanese -are- exposed to keigo through the media, whether it be J-drama or anime or whatever. They actually have -some- preconception of what it is before they go take a class.

So just like everything else, they've been exposed to it and -could- learn it without taking structured education, but it is far, far faster to take structured learning to get the basics down properly. (Notice I didn't say a class, just 'structured learning'.)

wccrawford: if you're interested, I responded in the business japanese thread

tokyostyle Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:I'll comment on this. Your friend took a job where he was required to use a skill he did not possess.

I'll comment on this. You made a post on a topic you know nothing about.

Are you certain about that? Business language is a skill. You said he did not possess it. He was fired for not possessing it.

tokyostyle Wrote:Just because my friend, like you, did not believe this was true did not make it untrue.

Another odd assumption. What is it I do not believe is true?

Quote:The proper usage of keigo is not covered in daily Japanese life. It is something that must be studied, trained, and practiced.

In that way it is nothing like English. College graduates do not have to be taught how to answer the phone, how to compose e-mail, and how to talk to customers. Yet in Japan this is precisely what happens.

I fully well believe this, to an extent. Read my entire post instead of the first paragraph and you will see. I simply stated your friend should have learned it if it was necessary... for the job he'd taken, and that it probably wasn't something that couldn't be picked up by learning from his surroundings ;P

If there exists even one job where keigo is not an utmost necessity then everything else I've said holds true, as well.

wccrawford Wrote:Every single job I've ever had that required me to answer the phone (even the software developer job I'm doing right now) has had instruction on how to answer the phone. Usually it's just and hour-long video, and it's pretty simple, but that's still teaching.

And yes, this is a valid analogy since the Japanese -are- exposed to keigo through the media, whether it be J-drama or anime or whatever. They actually have -some- preconception of what it is before they go take a class.

*le shock*

I'm sure one could also learn from reading books, and/or observing co-workers as well.

kazelee Wrote:*le shock*

I'm sure one could also learn from reading books, and/or observing co-workers as well.

I'm sure you could, but the company wants it learned -right now-, 'eventually' like you'd learn from watching others and not 'sometime in the future' like if they asked you to read a book. So they train you directly, on the spot.

I've never argued there was no other way to learn. My argument is that structured learning gives you a boost.

There is no difference between learning language and everything else. You can learn it by observation and trial-and-error, or you can learn it from a book/video/instructor... Or you can do both. Anyone arguing for all one side or the other is doing a huge injustice to the learner.

tokyostyle Wrote:

urpwnd Wrote:All the grammar I learned in school (in English) was for nothing.

If you think you can "naturally" learn what a 20-year-old native speaker has to take classes for then I hope you enjoy your time in urpwnd-fantasy-land. Back here in the real world it is taken very seriously.

Just an observation, in Japan I see books to "select book" to "prepare" for the "preparation test" of "XYZ". Books about "introduction to reading" a book on "X'Y'"
In other words, they write too much.
Japanese do not learn kanji using mnemonics as a standard in school, they just memorize, they love grammar and worship cramming.
Of course this is in general, not everybody.

Anyways... do AJATT.. it's real

snallygaster Wrote:I'm pretty sure I was never explicitly taught any grammar after elementary school (and that was no more than "identify whether this word is a verb, noun or adjective"). I thought that was pretty normal.
But I agree that as an adult learner of a second language, learning grammar explicitly is extremely beneficial, if not absolutely necessary. It's a benefit, not a burden. Why trust simple exposure to teach you a rule over an inderterminate period of time with no guarantee that you'll ever fully get it, when that same rule might have been fully explained in a sentence or two?
On the other hand, I agree that you'll probably never get a good feel for the grammar without exposure & usage. Learning grammar explicitly isn't the solution, but it's a great tool that you're probably better using than ignoring. IMHO, of course.

“It is well to remember that grammar is common speech formulated”
-William Somerset Maugham

^
That for the most part is true. Formal papers are not very common outside of school and work. You're actually expected to learn how to write professionally in high school and college.

mark95427 Wrote:^
That for the most part is true. Formal papers are not very common outside of school and work. You're actually expected to learn how to write professionally in high school and college.

Where is one actually supposed to learn how to write formally in English? My high-school sure didn't teach me! It is probably my weakest skill in college (other than math). Is there a website or something that I could get good advice off of? For example, when I see people's essays etc. for my comparative literature class, I always notice how crappy my writing style is. Not only that, my English vocabulary is significantly smaller as well. Maybe that is one of the downfalls for being married to a foreigner?

@Hashiriya
Well, I'm only in 11th grade.

In my 9th & 10th grade English classes I wrote essays and the teacher would write notes on how to improve the essay. My teachers also showed the students examples of acceptable essays or formats.

Thesaurus.com is a great site for expanding your vocabulary.
I also believe that reading difficult texts allows you to improve your writing.
Google is another great resource for college...


If you want to improve your speech and composition, you should talk with people well-versed in the English language. You could also read more often.