I came across a sentence on iknow that I thought was kind of strange. 肉と魚とどちらが好きですか。

"Which do you like better, meat or fish?"
What? And all this time, I've thought that fish WAS meat. But apparently the Japanese don't think so. So what exactly does 肉 encompass? I assume beef is definitely in there. How about pork? Chicken? Spam?
In the same way, does 魚 encompass all kinds of seafood, or just fish?

Zarxrax Wrote:What? And all this time, I've thought that fish WAS meat. But apparently the Japanese don't think so.

Generally, I wouldn't think so either.

thefreedictionary.com Wrote:Meat: 1. The edible flesh of animals, especially that of mammals as opposed to that of fish or poultry

魚 is just fish. I think it's safe to say that 肉 is the meat of all land based animals.

Zarxrax Wrote:I came across a sentence on iknow that I thought was kind of strange. 肉と魚とどちらが好きですか。

"Which do you like better, meat or fish?"
What? And all this time, I've thought that fish WAS meat. But apparently the Japanese don't think so. So what exactly does 肉 encompass? I assume beef is definitely in there. How about pork? Chicken? Spam?
In the same way, does 魚 encompass all kinds of seafood, or just fish?

Fish is often not considered meat even in English. One of the first questions vegetarians get asked when they say what they are is "do you eat fish?". The current definition in the Oxford dict says "flesh of an animal, especially a mammal". The etymology originally meant "food of any kind". One of the definitions of animal in the same dictionary is "mammal, as opposed to fish, birds, reptiles, insects, etc".

I'm not religious but I'd think fish is treated differently with respect to kosher/halal too, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Japanese has the same ambiguity. Ex:
ぎょにく【魚肉】 (gyoniku)
fish (meat).

Well damn o.o

It blows my mind that fish isn't considered meat... I mean... clearly it is! It's fleshy... meat!

If you want a better puzzler, think of this: Japanese has no word equivalent to the English "water".

You can't call hot water 水, and you can't call cold water 湯.

So that's why my sister says she is a vegetarian even though she eats fish. She is clearly Japanese.

Evil_Dragon Wrote:So that's why my sister says she is a vegetarian even though she eats fish. She is clearly Japanese.

haha. She's technically pescetarian then.


I think it stems from the vegetarianism tradition in Buddhism. It varies by different sects though.... but my friend's dad is a monk (or is priest a better translation??? I never know), and many of the people I've met through them that are associated with temples don't eat 4-legged animals (typically considered to be meat) but will eat fish. It causes all kinds of headaches for my vegetarian friends who don't realize that 肉 doesn't include fish, as they'll say they don't eat meat, and are presented with a meal of fish.

On a kind of related note, that's apparently also why rabbits are counted using 羽, like birds. They figured if they were counted the same as birds, then everyone (including the clergy) could partake.

It depends on why someone is a vegetarian. Some people give up meat for health reasons and so continue to eat fish. I have been vegetarian for 14 years. I don't do it for health reasons but I have gained health benefits from it. I am the only person in my family who is not wide as a truck. I sat in a Mcdonald's in Nara one time waiting for a friend. I saw the only 20 obese Japanese people in the whole country there.

It is tough being vegetarian in Japan. I had to stop eating out. I always asked in Japanese for a vegetarian dish. I would still be brought something with chicken or fish in it. I ordered miso soup one time and it had ham in it.

I wouldn't equate eating meat with eating at McDonalds. I'm pretty sure the "non-meat" section of the food at McDonald's (fries, large sodas, the buns) contributed more to the obesity than the 4 ounces of meat patties. Actually, I know it is as processed grains (including that corn syrup they put in everything) does a horrible number on the body.

I don't consider vegetarianism the only healthy alternative, but it is reasonable. The more extreme types have to take efforts to get more protein in their diet (soy bean products the best for this, right?). But like you said, most everything served in Japan includes some type of animal product, so eating here depends on how extreme one takes vegetarianism.

In addition, as McDonald's was mentioned, processed grains and other heavily processed foods are just as terrible for vegetarians as they are in any diet. Use with care even though there's no meat.

The fries are cooked in lard. The Hindus won a million dollar lawsuit against Mcdonald's for false advertisement a few years ago for that. It is rare for a vegetarian to have protein deficiencies. The average person gets far too much protein. The only people I know who develop protein issues are fruitarians. They only eat fruit because the plant or tree does not die providing the fruit. There are many here in Hawaii and some die themselves because of that diet.

[ファブリス]

Well so long as you don't work out or do a lot of sporting activity, otherwise if you want to be a hard-core vegetarian who eats no eggs or milk or fish, you need to learn about getting good sources of proteins, it's not that easy. They have specific communities/forums actually for vegetarian who like to lift weights.

bodhisamaya Wrote:The fries are cooked in lard. The Hindus won a million dollar lawsuit against Mcdonald's for false advertisement a few years ago for that. It is rare for a vegetarian to have protein deficiencies. The average person gets far too much protein. The only people I know who develop protein issues are fruitarians. They only eat fruit because the plant or tree does not die providing the fruit. There are many here in Hawaii and some die themselves because of that diet.

Did it never occur to them that collecting beans from a bean plant doesn't kill it, either?

I would be more inclined to say 肉　is like land meat, 魚 is like sea meat. But anyone who claims to be vegetarian and still eats fish... uhhhh.

Beans are fruit.

That said, this distinction persists in English as well. You've never been asked "meat or fish"?

~J

bodhisamaya Wrote:The fries are cooked in lard. The Hindus won a million dollar lawsuit against Mcdonald's for false advertisement a few years ago for that. It is rare for a vegetarian to have protein deficiencies. The average person gets far too much protein. The only people I know who develop protein issues are fruitarians. They only eat fruit because the plant or tree does not die providing the fruit. There are many here in Hawaii and some die themselves because of that diet.

afaik they haven't used lard for years, hence the bland taste.

Not calling fish meat is just a lame excuse for veggies to eat at the sushi bar.

If you want an even more confusing definition, look up "berry" on wikipedia. The botanical definition is nothing like the layman's definition.

Blueberries, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries, raspberries, as well as many other "berries" are not in fact berries.

Guavas, plantains, grapes, persimmons and eggplants are some "nonberries" that are actually "berries".

Confusing!

I'm not sure if it's the same in other countries or not, but in Mexico at least, most people seem to think vegetarians will eat chicken too. I think "meat" seems to mean "mammal" to many people. Do Japanese feel this way about chicken too?

ファブリス Wrote:Well so long as you don't work out or do a lot of sporting activity, otherwise if you want to be a hard-core vegetarian who eats no eggs or milk or fish, you need to learn about getting good sources of proteins, it's not that easy. They have specific communities/forums actually for vegetarian who like to lift weights.

Someone is forgetting to tell vegans this :lol: They are the healthiest and most active people I know. Even those in their 60's run around like teenie-boppers. Never seeming to run out of energy even after hiking and swimming all day. I am not vegan but I have cut down on dairy. Cow's milk is really unhealthy and chicken houses for egg production are some of of the most abusive form of animal torture out there.

Are you sure the vegans in question haven't done the "learn about getting good sources of proteins" part? He didn't assert it was impossible, just unlikely to happen if you remove animal products from your diet without giving thought to the replacement.

~J

These days it requires little thought or planning. There are tons of meat replacement products in the grocery stores. Here in Hawaii it is perhaps easier as most restaurants have vegetarian menus. Even the hot dog stand has veggie dogs, veggie burgers, fakin bacon, phoney balonie, and tofurkey.

[ファブリス]

Yeah, I believe you bodhisamaya, just meant ot say that going from a meat eating, thoroughly cooked, full-of-dairy-and-fish-and-eggs diet to a real vegetarian diet overnight isn't a good idea for most people. You need to find a replacement for those proteins.

As for vegetarian menus. Hmmm.. would it be correct to say it's far more popular in US than in Europe? We have tons of vegetarian people here of course, but there is not such a wide support in restaurants etc.

Also I would be suspect of any food labelled "vegetarian" in the supermakets as well as in restaurants. Just like the craze for BIO food, it may be that you will indeed have something meat free, fish free ^_^ .. , dairy free... but still unbalanced and full of unnecessary calories. But uh... I'm being picky. Just good to be aware that "bio" or "suitable for vegetarian" food doesn't necessarily mean good food.

For what it's worth, I think bodhisamaya's view is tainted by environs; I don't see nearly the level of support around where I'm originally from (Boston, though it isn't too bad), much less in the middle of Indiana where I temporarily find myself.

~J

ファブリス Wrote:Also I would be suspect of any food labelled "vegetarian" in the supermakets as well as in restaurants. Just like the craze for BIO food, it may be that you will indeed have something meat free, fish free ^_^ .. , dairy free... but still unbalanced and full of unnecessary calories. But uh... I'm being picky. Just good to be aware that "bio" or "suitable for vegetarian" food doesn't necessarily mean good food.

They have to label the ingredients in the supermarket so I can't imagine meat would sneak into vegetarian products. Restaurants can be tricky though. Fish paste, chicken and beef stock find their way into "vegetarian" dishes at times if is a local owner that doesn't understand why it shouldn't be (Filipinos are notorious). The term "Organic" is often wrongly labeled. Organic in the general sense just means life. So businesses take advantage of that and mis-lead the public. Laws are getting stricter though.

Organic doesn't even mean life, it means (with some exceptions excluded) "contains carbon". 100% organic plastic.

(Note: "organic" in labeling is, obviously, legally defined differently)

~J