re: わっち、あたい

Yes various further bastardizations of watashi exist, but they aren't used by many people (even uchi was barely worth mentioning) and they tend to be dialectical. Ex: according to my dictionary あたい is mainly used in only one suburb of Tokyo. Also, わっち is out of date (edo jidai) and seems to have mostly been a term for men although some women (prostitutes) did use it. If you heard it in a drama it was something to make the person seem quirky. (I think the girl in osen used it?)

The point is, the only self referential term most women use in ANY social setting from extremely familiar up to keigo is watashi.

-edit-
Not including when they are just making shit up to look cute re the previous post I could make up self referential terms all day but they'd still be individualistic and statistically irrelevant. I'm guessing you live in 田舎のほう (or talk to lots of 田舎者) if you actually hear people say うち more than once in a blue moon. The most I've ever heard it is one girl who would use it in certain sentence constructs, but not as a universal self reference.

Personally I find うち adorable in an out of date inakamono "Georgia peach" sort of way. Unfortunately my girlfriend just uses わたし despite being an inakamono.

btw, やん is just a dialectical variant of じゃん, not a cute-ism.

-moar edits-
Just checked a linguistics book (ついでに) on women's Japanese while I was in the library earlier. The book is kind of old (1985) but the numbers for Japanese highschool girls were roughly:
watashi 58%
atashi 34%
watakushi 6%
avoid personal pronouns altogether 2%
I'm assuming they left out everything else (uchi etc) since it was too insignificant (below 1%). In present times atashi and watakushi have fallen behind with watashi's growth, part of the de-feminization of female speech that has been occurring.

There was an interesting tidbit on the next page that is more on topic with this thread: female formal speech. While it is gender neutral, females tend to use fewer kango (aka words of Chinese origin) words than men by a fairly large margin. So while there is nothing that is explicitly feminine in female formal speech, they tend to use less complex language.

"Uchi" is extremely prevalent in the countryside down here.

But as far as politeness is concerned, that's a different story. Watashi rules the roost.

wrightak Wrote:

Thora Wrote:A reflection of the traditionally lower status of women generally. This can make it a bit tricky trying to navigate the appropriate language to use in circumstances that are not so traditional. ...

I think it's got a lot more to do with people trying to be attractive. [...]

Yes, I'm saying the same thing in a different way. I mean, aren't the differences in what is considered attractive in a woman (polite, soft, passive, self-sacrificing, beautiful) and in a man (powerful, rich, strong, status) themselves a reflection of historical inequality? To a certain degree, equality will bring a gradual reinterpretation of what is considered attractive.

In the meantime, many gender language differences (eg more polite) reflect the lower status of women historically. This language inequality hasn't caught up with the change of the role of women in society. So women sometimes feel a need to choose between being perceived as a 'normal' woman (attractive) and being perceived as competent manager (scary).

wrightak Wrote:I think that use of language is linked to the fact that Japanese women rarely occupy positions of authority. However, I think you've got the cause and effect the wrong way round - it's not a reflection, it's part of the cause. Women can't speak strongly and coarsely like men do because it would make them look unfeminine and as a consequence, men will be able to argue more forcefully with stronger language. To sum up, men can use powerful language and this gives them power.

In the interests of equality, in the workplace everyone should speak politely. But thanks to 上下関係, that's never how it works.

Yes, this was exactly my point - I guess I wasn't clear. But I'd say it's both cause and effect. Language and customs reflect past inequality. And adherence to such language differences impedes equality in the office.

I think it's often the perception of authority, not even actual authority. Using myself as an example: I want to appear strong enough to gain the confidence and respect of my older male clients without crossing some line and turning them off. I want to chat with the women in the office who are closer to my age, without the boss lumping me in the OL camp. I want to go out drinking with my male colleagues and be able to be my normal 'feminine' self without eroding my credibility at the office. I'm not at all confident that I always get the balance right (but as a foreigner I imagine I'm given some latitude).

Also, it's not just gender power differences. Japanese use language to convey different levels of respect, distance, etc based an age, relationship, etc. So as modern society muddles up once predictable roles, the standard language rules and customs become harder to apply　I think.

This is obviously a topic that's meaningful for me. Hopefully it didn't derail the keigo topic too much.

I think that we're branching into two topics: appropriate language and gender inequality/differences.

Thora Wrote:I mean, aren't the differences in what is considered attractive in a woman (polite, soft, passive, self-sacrificing, beautiful) and in a man (powerful, rich, strong, status) themselves a reflection of historical inequality?

Wow. That's pretty deep. In short, I don't think so. I think that evolutionary advantage plays a big role for the characteristics that you mentioned, especially the male ones. Mating with a powerful, rich, strong and high status male will clearly give a female's offspring evolutionary advantage in terms of both environment and genes. The evolutionary advantages of being polite, soft and passive are more difficult to rationalize but I believe they are there. Historical inequality may have amplified the effects of these traits but I think their basis goes back much further than any kind of discrimination or inequality.

Quote:To a certain degree, equality will bring a gradual reinterpretation of what is considered attractive.

Absolutely. There's no reason why powerful, rich and strong women shouldn't be attractive. (It certainly sounds good to me!) Similarly, polite, soft and self-sacrificing are all qualities that can be attractive in men. Not sure about passive though.

Quote:Yes, this was exactly my point - I guess I wasn't clear. But I'd say it's both cause and effect. Language and customs reflects past inequality. And adherence to such language differences impedes equality in the office.

You're right. You do have a chicken and egg scenario.

Quote:Using myself as an example: I want to appear strong enough to gain the confidence and respect of my older male clients without crossing some line and turning them off. I want to chat with the women in the office who are closer to my age, without the boss lumping me in the OL camp. I want to go out drinking with my male colleagues and be able to be my normal 'feminine' self without eroding any of my credibility at the office. I'm not at all confident that I always get the balance right (but as a foreigner I imagine I'm given some latitude).

So are you in Japan? (I thought you were in Canada) I can understand the language difficulties you mention but I'm not sure what you mean with your comments about going out drinking. In my company, we all go out for drinks and both men and women can erode their credibility in the office by saying/doing things that seemed like a good idea at the time.

Heck, I was in a skypecast a few months ago, and I heard a very strange sound. It was promptly followed by a 「ああ、うちのネコです」

playadom Wrote:Heck, I was in a skypecast a few months ago, and I heard a very strange sound. It was promptly followed by a 「ああ、うちのネコです」

That's using うち to refer to one's household rather than oneself. Very common and used by males and females. Also used in business to refer to your own company/department.

Has anyone heard a girl call herself ぼく? I'm sure it happens only in anime, but it's cute

I have, once; the girl was in her early teens.

~J

nac_est Wrote:Has anyone heard a girl call herself ぼく? I'm sure it happens only in anime, but it's cute

It's pretty common in songs (and no not just Hikki before someone says it).

Jarvik7 Wrote:It's pretty common in songs (and no not just Hikki before someone says it).

Yeah, now that you mention it I've noticed it too. I assumed it was for some kind of traditionalist/sexist reasons.

tokyostyle Wrote:I will concede that I have some pretty off-the-wall friends though. The stuff they say when they are drunk blows my mind.

Wrightak Wrote:I can understand the language difficulties you mention but I'm not sure what you mean with your comments about going out drinking. In my company, we all go out for drinks and both men and women can erode their credibility in the office by saying/doing things that seemed like a good idea at the time.

yeah, that's true, alcohol in Japan is the ultimate truth serum... pressure valve... get-out-of-jail-free-card (pick your mixed-metaphor combo)

' Wrote:So are you in Japan? (I thought you were in Canada)

I'm really recalling my experience in Japan (8 yrs) and trying to be better prepared for my next stint. I still work with people from Japan, but I know them well now and we meet on my turf, so I feel less constrained. (although drinking isn't quite as tolerated in Canada...haha)

Here's some more keigo for those who want it. I got it from a wedding invitation. Notice there are no periods. I heard this is because the periods break up the sentences which alludes to breaking up the marriage.

謹啓　薫風の候となりました

皆様方にはお健やかにお過ごしのこととお慶び申し上げます

このたび　私たちは結婚式を挙げることになりました

つきましては日頃お世話になっている皆様方をお招きして

ささやかではありますが披露の宴を開きたいと存じます

お忙しい中まことに恐縮ではございますがなにとぞ

ご出席くださいますようお願い申し上げます　　　敬具

2009年5月吉日

I love how RSVP = ご出席くださいますようお願い申し上げます

nac_est Wrote:Has anyone heard a girl call herself ぼく? I'm sure it happens only in anime, but it's cute

Young girls use ぼく sometimes, especially when in groups of only girls. I hear that it's getting more popular because it sounds cute.

Also, using うち as 'me' is popular in Kansai-ben, so if you're in the area you'll hear it a lot. They even say うちら to mean 'we' here. Another one is うちとこ being used as a variation on the うち that means your house, family, or possessions (うちとこの車）. Note that it seems like many manga/anime/drama have the token kansai-jin, so you'll hear those characters say these a lot.