mentat_kgs Wrote:Lol, and why not COBOL then?

haha

http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/hack/realmen.html

Python shouldn't have any problems with Unicode, especially not if you go with Python 3.0 since it was made to work with unicode as standard. Most people don't use 3.0 though so... yeah.

PHP's unicode support is pants. Hence why I was movie to Ruby. I thought its unicode support was good? ... After a quick Google search, I see it isn't. Bleh.

Python would be my next choice then.

As for C#... I already know it. I work mainly in Linux, though, so it's not something that I think about first.

I really thought PHP could deal with the limited use I'm putting this to... Hmm... Maybe if I rework some of the code so I'm dealing with arrays instead of strings. I think I'll try that first.

Not sure it'll happen this weekend, though, as I hurt my ankle and moving from the TV to the computer requires serious willpower.

Ruby unicode support is really good. But it is not built by default in the language.
You can play with unicode strings anytime, but you can't write your code in unicode, not even strings. You have to rely to those escaped characters.

Python's unicode is great. But some modules don't support it. The URL and file handling modules choke with unicode strings.

Perl's unicode support is probably the best of all languages. Or I am blind.

C# is really nice. It's unicode support is perfect, much better than Java's. But you'll be locked in a MS environment.

I don't know anything about PHP. I only wrote small apps with it.

--

If you want fun, go for Ruby. You will not be required to do anything tricky to mess with unicode, but it is not transparent.

If you want it done quickly, go with Perl. You'll probably find half of what you need to do done in http://www.cpan.org/ anyway.

BTW: http://www.laputan.org/mud/

2001.Kanji.Odyssey Word List 31 (451-465)
2001.Kanji.Odyssey Word List 32 (466-480)
2001.Kanji.Odyssey Compiled List 06 (451-540)

Missing Sentences:
456/2
456/3
460/4
462/2
463/3
464/2
469/4
470/3
474/4
477/4

PHP 6 is supposed to have unicode support. Last I read about it (a while back) was most of the common functions don't support it properly, not exactly useful then. For C# you can use Mono on *nix, it's mainly feature complete.

pubbie Wrote:Wow, travis is sick...

Haha, yeah. Thanks Travis! I plan to start entering some again here soon... Can't sit at a desk for long right now, though.

mentat_kgs Wrote:I agree that Python & Ruby are nice. But their unicode support kinda lets you down.

I'm not so familiar with Ruby, but Python's unicode support is generally good from my experience. From version 3, all strings are unicode actually.

Perl is just, such a horrible language . It just should not be allowed for use in projects of more than 1 programmer .

I'm not familiar with Python 3. But I heard great things about it.

The cool thing about Ruby is that it was created in Japan.

Codexus Wrote:The cool thing about Ruby is that it was created in Japan.

Yeah, fitting for a forum such as this. Personally though, I found Python much cleaner and fun to use. Took some getting used to (I used to stick to Java for everything) but after that, I really can't stand using other languages.

Ruby is, at the moment, slightly faster than Python. However, Google is working on a new implementation of Python called Unladen Swallow which is supposedly 5 times faster than CPython... which would make it more than 2 times faster than Ruby at its fastest.

I mean... google goes with Python, how can one resist it?

Ruby's japanese documentation sometimes is better than the English counterpart. Katsumoto himself (the language creator) wrote a book about the language.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Ruby's japanese documentation sometimes is better than the English counterpart. Katsumoto himself (the language creator) wrote a book about the language.

"Yukihiro Matsumoto" you mean.

I jumped to Ruby second because I knew it was a lot more popular in Japan than the US, so I assumed (shame on me!) that the UNICODE support would be first-rate.

**Edit: Sorry, meant CosCom, not Cerego.

Sorry for not updating this. Thanks goes out to Travis for pretty much doing 1 section all on his own. That brings the list to 555 which is the first book.

By the way, CosCom replied to me that they're working on KO Book 3 right now. After that they'll think about releasing their Kanji List on their website. Now, that sounds pretty far in the future so has anyone scanned their kanji list yet?

556-570 now finished.

http://smart.fm/lists/76409

Sorry it took so long; things are heating up a bit at work, and there's been no time...

Brain fart on my part. I meant CosCom.

Nukemarine Wrote:By the way, CosCom replied to me that they're working on KO Book 3 right now. After that they'll think about releasing their Kanji List on their website. Now, that sounds pretty far in the future so has anyone scanned their kanji list yet?

Wow that is great news. I'm flying through volume 1 of KO2001 (frame 185 after just 21 days) and was just thinking to myself today "It sucks they stop doing sentences after the first 1,000".

Even though I've just started and all of the vocab hasn't really "sunk in" yet I can already see how great their frequency listing is. I'm constantly hearing/seeing the new words in my daily listening and reading which is a huge motivation. If they completed the series, which would provide about a 7,200 word vocabulary (based off the numbers of the first two volumes) I think it would easily become the "reference" source for Japanese vocab.

"reference" might be a bad word. "Starter source" is probably better.

wccrawford Wrote:"reference" might be a bad word. "Starter source" is probably better.

True.

What I would like to know is just how deep these various frequency lists really go. For those of us that don't have any sort of end goal when it comes to "fluency" I would love to have a frequency list in the 20,000+ range.

I'll post that Frequency list that was listed on the iKnow thread onto the Google Document thread. It's about 14000 words long and lists the appearance per million characters. That list is useful if you want to find words that cover 1%-80%, 81%-95%, 95%+. There's two sheets, one with every character and one with the single kana and special characters removed.

What I'll also try to do is organize in another sheet on the same file the words in groups of 2000 organized in Kanji Odyssey order.

i'll take 616 - 630 and try to finish it by Thursday 4/23/09

has anyone been using these lists to study with a lot? i'll be finishing up studying the 4th compiled list by this week and i feel like my Japanese ability has jumped up quite a bit since i have started... i feel as if i could jump to straight monolingual after i finish studying all these and improve my grammar a little bit more... how is everyone's studying coming along?

Hashiriya Wrote:i'll take 616 - 630 and try to finish it by Thursday 4/23/09

has anyone been using these lists to study with a lot? i'll be finishing up studying the 4th compiled list by this week and i feel like my Japanese ability has jumped up quite a bit since i have started... i feel as if i could jump to straight monolingual after i finish studying all these and improve my grammar a little bit more... how is everyone's studying coming along?

I want to kiss these lists. Sadly they exists only as ideas and thus are composed of nothing to firmly place my lips agane'st. If you are the same Hashiriya from smartfm I'm surprised you haven't gone monolingual already .

I've been wondering about the words and frequency lists and about a person knowledge of vocab in general. I've being doing iKnow core 6000 backwards and I'm coming up on words that are merely the noun form of verbs or the verb form of adjectives or obvious compounds (words not kanji) ... What I mean is that they are not unique. Same meaning, same pronunciation (save for last syllable).

I'm begging to almost confuse myself so I'll just ask, how many sort of unique words make up an individuals vocabulary?

Apparently for a university graduate it's about 20000 word families, where a word family is

Quote:taken to include a base word, its inflected forms, and a small number of reasonably regular derived forms.

Here's some research: http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~waring/papers/cup.html

That's for English. English's vocabulary size is from 15000 to 20000 words.
I've read somewhere else that Japanese vocabulary is a bit larger, of around ~25000 words.

mentat_kgs Wrote:That's for English. English's vocabulary size is from 15000 to 20000 words.
I've read somewhere else that Japanese vocabulary is a bit larger, of around ~25000 words.

Does anyone here know of a link to a source that states the vocabulary size of a native adult Japanese speaker (or a Japanese college graduate, or something similar)? I have heard numbers that vary a lot...