I've read a few of Alyks' posts on his blog, as well as pretty much all of Khatz's site. They both make mention of reading a lot, especially Alyks- hours and hours of reading manga. They both talk about how enjoyable it is and how studying grammar is a waste of time.

I'm currently in the middle of reading a book aimed at elementary school kids- I wanted something I would find interesting so I picked a fantasy book. I've read fantasy books my whole life in English and really enjoy them. Even though I love reading, it is not fun for me to be constantly typing in words into my dictionary for hours on end. I read for two hours the other day and I was exhausted- it wasn't fun anymore. How do people like Alyks keep up 8 hours+ of reading in a given day? I've tried reading without looking up words but I don't understand the story at all then.

Is there something I'm missing?

Are you doing sentences?

If it gets boring, stop, do something else.

What I find interesting is if you come back to it tomorrow after a good night's rest and re-read what you've read, it starts to make sense

nac_est Wrote:Are you doing sentences?

In Anki? Yes. I have about 800 of my own and I've been adding the iKnow lists that I study using the plug-in Damien made.

captal Wrote:

nac_est Wrote:Are you doing sentences?

In Anki? Yes. I have about 800 of my own and I've been adding the iKnow lists that I study using the plug-in Damien made.

I found that as well- rereading the past several pages after doing translation really helps clear things up. However, what I'm talking about is the ability to do so much in a given day and have it still be fun. I don't understand it. I want things to be more fun, but everything is becoming a chore.

captal Wrote:

captal Wrote:

nac_est Wrote:Are you doing sentences?

In Anki? Yes. I have about 800 of my own and I've been adding the iKnow lists that I study using the plug-in Damien made.

I found that as well- rereading the past several pages after doing translation really helps clear things up. However, what I'm talking about is the ability to do so much in a given day and have it still be fun. I don't understand it. I want things to be more fun, but everything is becoming a chore.

Do what you would do in English if it started to become boring - stop reading.
Look for more interesting material unless that feels like a chore too.

I think I'll point out the same thing a buddhist would: suffering is temporary. You'll never do more dictionary queries, etc, than when you're just starting out with basic reading material, because you don't have a lexical foundation yet. The more you read, the easier it gets, and for beginners it gets easier fast.

It's also worth pointing out that manga is generally an easier read than a book: firstly there is simply less text, secondly it's mostly dialogue which is usually less complex than descriptive text, and thirdly you can often skip the complicated bits and still retain a grasp of what's happening just by looking at the pictures. If it's too much of a slog working through the book at the moment, find something else that's a bit easier, and come back to the book later.

My rule of thumb is that if I need to look up more than one word to broadly understand the first page or two of a book, it's probably too hard for now.

You're doing it wrong, that's what you're missing. You're supposed to read. JUST read. Throw the dictionary away. Have a notebook or something by your side, when you find a word you feel you need to know, write it down and continue reading.

If the book is too hard for you to do that (remember, you only need to understand 50%+, don't consider it too hard just because you don't understand everything) just get something easier. If you're going to look up words, it won't ever become enjoyable. You need to learn how to ignore what you don't understand and focus on what you DO understand. Eventually you will notice that it's quite alright to read without understanding it all.

I think Captal is where I was at just a few months ago... He doesn't have enough vocab yet to 'just read'. It's impossible. Every word must be looked up.

Here's what I did: Learn Vocab. Go to iKnow.co.jp and do the first 400 vocab and then pick the book back up. You will be -amazed- at how much you understand and how little you need to use a dictionary. From then on, you can follow the advice of Khatz and Alyks.

That's not to say I don't use a dictionary. I do, but only when a word is obviously very important and I seem to be missing something. But if I don't feel like it, I still don't bother.

Also, instead of a notebook, consider getting those post-it flags and just mark the word to look up later. It's quicker and easier, and you don't have to break your flow as badly.

I second what wccrawford says. I noticed it when I did vocabulary from KO2001 and now from iKnow.

I also second what Tobberoth says about not using a dictionary. If you're doing a dictionary, then you're studying. Just read it. Like he says, write down a word you don't know or use a marker on words you don't know. A side benefit of a marker is should you read that book or manga later, you see what you didn't know then but now know. To be honest, I don't even do that. I just go through the manga.

Another method to do reading is .... sub-titles.

Another method is similar to subtitles, and that's the scripts. There's a great site called dramanote.seesaa.net , which I find fun to read about a show I liked. It's got description and dialogue so it's like reading a 20 page short story. If you do it online, you can use rikachan as a quick dictionary. What I did was print them out so I can read them on the train.

Makes sense guys- I'll just mark words I don't know and look them up later- a good compromise between not looking up at all and looking up every word. Thanks for the tip. I'll head out and grab some more material tomorrow so that I have more variety. Right now I just have Yotsuba (which I don't really find that appealing even if it is easy to understand) and my fantasy book, which is about 6th grade level and does contain a lot of description (as well as every word imaginable for nod, said, etc). At least I now know what a 山越え is though

I think my problem was that I was going for 100% comprehension, when less would surely do. I do find it helpful that after a few pages are completed to reread and then write an English paraphrase to get my head around the plot. How long do you usually read for before going and looking up words? Not trying to make a formula out of it or anything, but looking up a word and then thinking "now what page was that on..." may make things more difficult.

Alyks has some interesting manga recommendations up, so maybe I'll pick up a few volumes at the local used manga shop.

Interesting thread as I'm pretty much in a similar situation, I keep hearing people like alyks saying to just read but at the moment its extremely difficult as I still need much more vocab, so from what I can see for a beginner its much more beneficial to gain vocab/grammar from mined sentences from iknow and other places.

tibul Wrote:Interesting thread as I'm pretty much in a similar situation, I keep hearing people like alyks saying to just read but at the moment its extremely difficult as I still need much more vocab, so from what I can see for a beginner its much more beneficial to gain vocab/grammar from mined sentences from iknow and other places.

Which is why I have always recommended textbooks like Minna no Nihongo. Starts really easy with real dialogues. When done with it, mangas etc will be fine, and you can finish them in no-time if all you want is good sources to mine.

Some famous writer once said, books should be like TV,---change the channel as much as you want!

I have found this to be true for Japanese study. In English I can usually read a book straight thru, but in Japanese, I find I need to jump from book to book and back to keep things from getting boring. Somethings its the level of japanese that makes it boring, sometimes its the story, but recognizing that reading become a chore rather than something fun, and then changing it up, keeps you reading in japanese!

captal Wrote:I've tried reading without looking up words but I don't understand the story at all then.

I don't think you should never look up words, feel free to look as many words as you want (I stress that they should be words you actually want to look up), just don't think you need a 100% comprehension with what you're reading the first time.
Also, don't let me tell you want you need to do. It's what's enjoyable and gets you doing stuff in Japanese everyday, not what Khatzu/I say to do.

If reading the book ended up not being fun, then that's a problem. You could try reading a translation of a book you've already read with the original near, which could help your problem.