This was brought up (again) in the other thread, but I didn't want to stir away from the topic too much.
I've found some very interesting links I want to show you, with Japanese people talking exactly about this matter (how to answer to a poor 外国人 who asked something in Japanese).

From Yahoo!知恵袋:
http://tinyurl.com/8y9rx3

From コトノハ (a site where you put up a question and people answer ○yes or ×no, leaving a comment):
http://kotonoha.cc/no/154693
http://kotonoha.cc/no/44978

This one shows that they are not so mean after all :
http://kotonoha.cc/no/67608

Discuss if you please, or provide more links in juicy Japanese

This happened to me once in a store and I wasn't particularly bothered by it. I just kept speaking in Japanese and the clerk kept speaking in English. If I can insist on speaking in Japanese, it's only fair that they can insist on speaking English. In this case, the clerk's English was perfectly good. If her English had been bad I imagine this would be more annoying.

Quote:私が一緒にいた時は、主人が話しかけてもお店の人は私に答えを返してきます。

Daaaaang.

「自分が相手に合わせてあげなきゃ、という気持ちが強いんだと思います。」

ビンゴ！

nac_est Wrote:This was brought up (again) in the other thread, but I didn't want to stir away from the topic too much.
I've found some very interesting links I want to show you, with Japanese people talking exactly about this matter (how to answer to a poor 外国人 who asked something in Japanese).

From Yahoo!知恵袋:
http://tinyurl.com/8y9rx3

From コトノハ (a site where you put up a question and people answer ○yes or ×no, leaving a comment):
http://kotonoha.cc/no/154693
http://kotonoha.cc/no/44978

This one shows that they are not so mean after all :
http://kotonoha.cc/no/67608

Discuss if you please, or provide more links in juicy Japanese

Those kotonoha links don't provide much to go on. The response are are smaller than Youtube comments. Do you have any more links that point towards more....serious... discussion?

I thought those links were really interesting (especially this: 三┌|∵|┘)

I thought it was funny when Americans came up to me on the street and asked me for directions...and even funnier when a Swedish person started speaking to me in Swedish though that wasn't on the street.

Honestly I'm American and if a Japanese person speaks better English than I speak Japanese, I would just as well speak to them in English. I do know non-Americans who got really annoyed when Japanese people automatically spoke to them in English...and others who would just as well speak English because their English was better than their Japanese at any rate. I feel like even if a Japanese person has trouble immediately believing that a foreigner can speak Japanese, if the foreigner's Japanese is better than their English, they'll end up being relieved and speaking in Japanese.

Interesting stuff. My own experiences were that about 95% of the time, when I spoke in Japanese, I was responded to in Japanese. It was only an issue when I didn't understand the response. XD

My favorite kotonoha response was to use body language. (Well, that, and the people who just wanted to flee. lol.) I carried on a conversation for an hour with a mix of Japanese and English. My Japanese, then English when I didn't know a word, then she would reply in English, and Japanese when she didn't know a word. It was fine with me. We were both trying to communicate, so it was fun. When we couldn't figure something out, we played charades until we got close to figure out the word.

I'd agree that yeah, most of the time if I ask something in Japanese, people respond in Japanese. It's usually when the slightest bit of confusion enters into it, it goes downhill FAST. Then you get the deer in headlights look.

My worst experiences have come with store clerks. I find restaurants employees (especially masters) are generally pretty cool and relaxed, bar employees are the absolute best.. but trying to do anything at a convenient store is an exercise in frustration. They talk REALLY fast and really don't seem to know how to slow it down at all. heh...

Living here and all, I usually have the few places I tend to go to pretty established. They get used to me, I get used to them... makes things much less complicated.

Oh yeah, and if you ever want to have the easiest, most relaxed conversation ever, visit a barber in Japan. Like all barbers of the world, they're expert communicators.

Also, I liked this response from コトノハ:
でもカタコトの日本語も好き♡

I didn't know that word, 片言... haha.

Ben_Nielson Wrote:but trying to do anything at a convenient store is an exercise in frustration. They talk REALLY fast and really don't seem to know how to slow it down at all. heh...

That's too bad. In some countries, the convenience store clerk must carry a sidearm at all times and be well versed in hostage negotiation in several languages.

hahah...

To be fair, they are working a pretty crappy, near minimum wage job. I guess the last thing they want to deal with is a foreigner who can barely speak their language.

What about the opposite? When I was a student in Japan, I found myself speaking in English with my Japanese friends and they spoke to me in Japanese. My guess is that listening skills develop before speaking skills, so it just naturally evolved that this was the best way for us to communicate. I'm not sure we were even aware of it ....until we got some confused looks on the train. Seems weird now. Anyone else experience this?

I don't mind language study taking a back seat to communication when intimacy is involved. So gentlemen...don't be too demanding of your Japanese girlfriends, wives and fiances.

@Thora - yes, this has happened to me with a JGF - I spoke in English and she spoke in Japanese but we both understood each other. But it totally depends on the person, I've had JGFs where both of us spoke in Japanese and another where both of us spoke in English.

It totally depends on the situation, so I find these threads complaining about who is speaking what totally useless. For those complaining: have you ever considered that Japanese consider your level of Japanese spoken ability annoying and wish you would speak English instead?

--------------------------
I think, in general, when Japanese strangers try to speak English, they are trying to be considerate, and not selfish...
--------------------------

In the end, I think everyone should speak whatever they like and if you don't like what your companion is speaking complain to that person directly and see what kind of reaction you get.

@Thora - Yup, had a similar situation as well. I worked with a really cool lady at the last school I worked at. She was fluent in English, though when she found out I was studying Japanese she always spoke to me in Japanese. I would reply in English. It became really natural, actually.. though when other Japanese people would wander into the room while we were talking, they would look really confused.

Also, I've had a girlfriend who would slip into Japanese when she got tired. heh, a while back I had a girlfriend whose first language was Spanish. She'd always slip into Spanish when she got tired, but would never realize it. As I speak zero Spanish, she'd usually be two or three sentences into whatever she wanted to say before she realized I couldn't understand a word of what she was saying.

Speaking in a second language is hard work.

@kfmfe04 - I agree, it really is a "how can I best help this person out" thing usually.

---------

In general, yeah - you just have to roll with it. Speak Japanese with some people, speak English with others.

Though I can REALLY understand how people can get annoyed if they're on vacation. In that case, I definitely recommend you be a bit more terse. Then again, if you're on vacation, just pretend you're a Spanish tourist or something.

I think quite a lot of it is also about impressing other Japanese people, I suppose it looks cool if you can speak to the 外人 in his/her own language, especially in front of your boss or girlfriend.

Anyway I'm not sure what anyone is worried about, as far as I can tell the ambient English level in Japan is about zero.

And if they start speaking to you in your native language just speak back at full speed with some slightly convoluted reply and see how they deal with that if you're really that bothered.

All this talk about "blaming the native" is just so stupid.

When I went to Paris, some people replied to my French in English - not because they were trying to show off, but because it was faster/easier to communicate, given my level of conversational French.

If people are replying to your Japanese in English, rather than blaming the native, maybe you should look at yourself and reconsider how good your Japanese really is...

kfmfe04 Wrote:If people are replying to your Japanese in English, rather than blaming the native, maybe you should look at yourself and reconsider how good your Japanese really is...

Doesn't seem like they're blaming anyone so much as sharing experiences.

I certainly hope I didn't come across as "blaming the native" in the other thread where this discussion started. No slight on my part was ever intended in any way. But when a chance to converse in Japanese is denied, it just kinda sucks.

The links were cool, (thanks nac_est) and a great way to see it from the other point of view. My experiences may be different, since its even more rare for a 外人　to speak Japanese here in Vancouver than it would be in Tokyo, so I'm sure it catches people off guard.

I believe it depends in part on the manner, and in the confidence with which you speak. For example, Montreal is quite a bilingual city: Many speak French and English fluently, most speak one better than the other, some only function in one. Of course, with so many people being of European descent, there's no way to really tell which language someone is most comfortable speaking before you talk with them. (Unless you're in a primarily French or English speaking bar, for example.) So an amazing thing happens when you have to approach someone on the street. You begin, really, in either language, and gauge their response. You learn to do this in a fraction of a second - do they respond quickly, look confused, think too long about the answer, if they do respond are they fluent, speak with an accent but very capable or struggling, are they confident, insecure? It's very common to ask a question in one language, and then flip to the other almost instantaneously, based on the other person's reaction. Basically, conversations follow the path of least resistance and end up in the language where communication is easiest. A fabulous city, by the way, if anyone has a chance to visit.

In Quebec City I had a 10-minute discussion with a bartender in French, who had an accent I couldn't place. When I asked him where he was from he said "Dublin." "What the hell, you're English?" And that was the end of my French practice for the night.

OK, where was I going with this ... um ... yeah, I remember ... so even if my Japanese is passable, if I stumble, or it seems like I'm struggling, it's very natural for the other person to slip into English, especially since many of them are extremely capable English speakers who live and work in Canada. (And throw in some bilingual native English speakers as well.)

It's not a shot at the Japanese so much as an observation, (with a tinge of frustration and a little oh-come-on-you-could-have-at-least-tried-to-say-that-in-Japanese 気分 mixed in.)

To use an analogy, let's say I had to study Swedish in school from Grades 6-12 (Sorry Tobberoth) and really hated it and couldn't wait for classes to end. Then several years later some tall, blonde, Norse-looking dude with a back of pucks slung over his shoulder approaches me on the street. My first reaction might also be to turn away and hope he doesn't actually want to speak with me, while desperately trying to recall how to say "Good morning", just in case. If he speaks to me in perfect English, I might actually be relieved, and respond to him in English. However, if he falters, seems unsure of himself (though I hear that all Swedes are pretty darned good at English) then, even though I'm not fond of Swedish, I may try to use what I know, just to make the guy feel better - believing that I'm being more friendly, and not thinking that he really wants a chance to use his English.

Just a thought.


長いコメントでごめんなさい. そんなに日本語が好きだから、しゃべるチャンスを探してばかりいる。

Yeah, it seems like they do it out of courtesy. When they hear you speaking in their language they think you're being polite, so they want to return the favour and speak in your language. Certainly no bad intentions there.

On my part, I still haven't been to Japan, but when I will, I may play the "English is not my mother language, sorry" card. I'm so lucky ;P

Me and my girlfriend actually once planned to play that card in Sweden when we wanted to ride the train without a ticket. "If they catch us, speak nothing but Japanese and pretend we don't speak any Swedish or English".

Tobberoth Wrote:Me and my girlfriend actually once planned to play that card in Sweden when we wanted to ride the train without a ticket. "If they catch us, speak nothing but Japanese and pretend we don't speak any Swedish or English".

This is off-topic I know, but I've never really understood why people feel that riding public transport without paying (which is basically theft), is OK.

I mean, the sentence could easily be changed to "I actually once planned to play that card in xland when I wanted to get some food from the supermarket without paying. "If they catch me, I'll speak nothing but Japanese and pretend I don't speak any xLandish or English".". I assume very few people would even considered doing that, and even if they did, wouldn't be posting about it here.

Sorry if that comes off as stuck-up, or holier-than-thou or something. I don't mean to be critical of any individual, but I am genuinely curious about the apparent moral double-standard in society. I wonder if fare-dodging is seen differently in Japan?

Tourne Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Me and my girlfriend actually once planned to play that card in Sweden when we wanted to ride the train without a ticket. "If they catch us, speak nothing but Japanese and pretend we don't speak any Swedish or English".

This is off-topic I know, but I've never really understood why people feel that riding public transport without paying (which is basically theft), is OK.

I mean, the sentence could easily be changed to "I actually once planned to play that card in xland when I wanted to get some food from the supermarket without paying. "If they catch me, I'll speak nothing but Japanese and pretend I don't speak any xLandish or English".". I assume very few people would even considered doing that, and even if they did, wouldn't be posting about it here.

Sorry if that comes off as stuck-up, or holier-than-thou or something. I don't mean to be critical of any individual, but I am genuinely curious about the apparent moral double-standard in society. I wonder if fare-dodging is seen differently in Japan?

Let's see... could it be that the prices are simply insane because of shitty city planning? Could it be because to buy a ticket you actually have to send an SMS with your cellphone, there's no machines so if you have no cash on your phone, shitty luck? Could it be that the prices were made with people who buy monthly cards in mind? Me and my girlfriend were just up in Gothemburg for 4 days to see some friends, we had to go in and out of the city to buy shit.. but a single ticket costs a fuckton if you don't have any card.

Public transport shouldn't cost money, it's as simple as that. I would call it civil disobediance (but it wasn't since we weren't openly refusing). I don't see how you can possibly compare stealing from a supermarket to riding for free on a train. When I ride the train, I do that INSTEAD of riding my car. I'm saving my government money, the train would go from point A to point B regardless, I'm just not destroying the environment etc. I realize they need money to keep the transports going, but as you may or may not know, Sweden has some of the highest taxes in the world, yet they expect us to pay insane amounts of money just to travel in a smart and modern way. Screw that.

For more information (you need to learn swedish though) go to http://www.planka.nu/ , a political site which has as aim to make public transportation free.

Tourne Wrote:I wonder if fare-dodging is seen differently in Japan?

Considering that multiple Japanese people explained to me how to do it without getting caught, I would think not. Perhaps it depends on the person.

What if you needed to get from Point A to Point B, it was way too far to walk, and you didn't have a way to pay? What would you do then? Just curious.

Tobberoth, I can't argue with anything you've said. Once again I apologise if I have caused any offense, it was not my intention to judge you or anyone else. I am only curious about the ethics issue in general (which one might equally apply to, say, the view people have of pirating of music or films), and interested to hear people's thinking and reasoning.

As you might guess, I can't speak Swedish, so the information on the planka.nu site is lost on me unfortunately. However, generally speaking, I would agree that there are some public services, including public transport, which should remain public and not be driven by the profit motive.

PrettyKitty Wrote:What if you needed to get from Point A to Point B, it was way too far to walk, and you didn't have a way to pay? What would you do then? Just curious.

1. Call a friend/family member for help.
2. Ask the station-master for help/to use the phone.
3. Ask a koban policeman for help/to use the phone.

But not ride for free.

There is also a big difference between not having a way to pay (if not on purpose), and refusing to pay because it seems to be too expensive and still trying to ride for free.

@Tourne: I don't think your comment was unreasonable at all!
...even after Tobberoth's explanation/excuse...

PrettyKitty Wrote:What if you needed to get from Point A to Point B, it was way too far to walk, and you didn't have a way to pay? What would you do then? Just curious.

I guess it would depend heavily on the particular circumstances and on the definition of "needed". One could also ask, for example, what if you were really hungry but had no money for food? I think these kinds of questions, and what the answers tell us about ourselves, are interesting.