KanjiHanzi Wrote:I don't know for sure but the pen I linked to with most of the upper part of the nib covered is fairly new - unusual - to my. That's exactly the type strongly recommended in the Yale book I linked to above.

It is actually a very common type of fountain pen. One of the most famous fountain pens is of this type, and many of the Chinese pens seem to be clones of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_51 (released in 1941)

Search for "hooded nib" if you want to find more.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Search for "hooded nib" if you want to find more.

Thanks a lot.

Found an online shop in Japan:

Japan Ujuku Shop
http://ujuku.ath.cx/ujuku-shop/kaimono/pentop3.htm

They don't seem to have the Sailor brush pens in stock right now, but I found the nice little alternative while waiting for the brush pens to arrive:

Kijiku Kokutan Kaga Takamakie (Yoshinoyama) fountain pen (from Sailor)
http://ujuku.ath.cx/ujuku-shop/kaimono/f...1-7916.htm

A pretty pen for a mere $ 9507.96. Will buy that today, I think :-) :-)

KanjiHanzi Wrote:Have you tried considerably softer lead? When I use a pencil, no matter if it's a conventional one or a mechanical one, I use much softer lead, in a conventional pencil up to as soft as 4B. I could even consider 6B if I had any around.

Yes, soft lead definitely gives a better result on the page and is much easier to write with. In fact a hard leaded pencil is probably the most unpleasant writing implement known to man, so maybe it is some kind of punishment I'm imposing on myself. But the main reasons I use one are that firstly the lead hardly ever snaps and secondly it erases more cleanly than any other writing implement I know of. I suppose it is the exact opposite of a fountain pen.

bandwidthjunkie Wrote:.... it erases more cleanly than any other writing implement I know of. I suppose it is the exact opposite of a fountain pen.

Personal dogma and tip: Do NOT erase when practicing individual characters. Write a new one and a new one and a new... until it feels comfortable. It doesn't have to LOOK GOOD, but you should get to the point where it is more or less automatic to write THIS character. Then move on to the next one.

Writing Kanji/Hanzi is very much a matter of confidence. Go to nciku.com and look at the animations on every character page there and try to mimic that. Start with basic stuff like the moon and the sun. Repeat and repeat. Being able to write ONE character with confidence will help you get a more relaxed relationship with other characters too.

When I use a pencil I use 0.5mm 2B lead. Anything softer smudges too much. Anyone who has problems with snapping softer leads should try switching to a thicker diameter and not letting as much lead out of the feeding mechanism. Also, use a lighter touch, softer leads don't need as much pressure to make a nice line.

@KanjiHanzi:
If I was rich enough to blow $9507+tax on a pen, I would just hire someone (good looking) to take dictation for me.

When I practice writing kanji as I study, I find a 0.9mm soft leaded mechanical pencils works rather well. I use 4 squares of graph paper for each character. I can see the appeal of fountain pen, but that would be impractical for me. I practice kanji with my right hand, while my left hand is my dominant. If I use something free flowing, like a fountain pen, I'd make a mess.

oregum Wrote:If I use something free flowing, like a fountain pen, I'd make a mess.

Why not use something like a Stabilo point 88 "tip pen" then? They are cheap and they last quite well plus don't smudge too bad. My book shop hasn't thinner than "fine" 0.4 mm, which is really too thick for me, but it's OK for practicing.

Jarvik7 Wrote:If I was rich enough to blow $9507+tax on a pen, I would just hire someone (good looking) to take dictation for me.

But the fun and the feeling?!?! :-) OK, the good looking one also might also be fun, I assume. But still... I think I would go for the pen! Or buy 100 $95 pens.

This is the link to the Sailor Profit from the company I buy refills from. I got the pens at Ito-ya in Ginza, I get refills from Swisher Pens. I bought an extra pen from Swisher for my brother-in-law, who uses it for art stuff.

http://www.swisherpens.com/catalog/compa...sh-pen.htm

Right now, the Profit runs $22, but it comes with a pack of refills, and they have a pretty decent shipping deal, too. They ship internationally, too. I've bought from them before, and they're easy to deal with.

I've been using the Profit for my RTK reviews now for a little over a year. It's good for me, because I also do calligraphy, so I can practice strokes... sort of.

It's not like a real calligraphy brush, but it's brush-like. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad for calligraphy-- it's fun, and something to break up the monotony of reviews.

My rule of thumb is that anything I write in Japanese for other people to read, I write in pencil, unless I know exactly what I'm doing (i.e., a calligraphy thing). So I mostly write in pencil. It's just faster.

Someone posted some links to pen-ji books before... I can't remember where, but I like this one:

http://tinyurl.com/7fkpdx

rich_f Wrote:This is the link to the Sailor Profit from the company I buy refills from. I got the pens at Ito-ya in Ginza, I get refills from Swisher Pens. I bought an extra pen from Swisher for my brother-in-law, who uses it for art stuff.

Thanks a lot! I will buy one and see if it is much better than the PITT ones I've got. They are not bad per se, but it is VERY difficult to vary width of the stroke if you don't write/draw meteorically slow and controlled. I can't recall the name of the stroke now, but the single most difficult stroke to get right is the final, diagonal stroke of characters like tree. No matter if you use brush or pen. It really defies gravity!! I've practiced this stroke at least since 2000 - thousands of times - and I still don't get it correct. OK, now when I write hanzi in the slightly different Chinese way - yes, there is a subtle, but still very clear difference - it is finally starting to yield for my efforts! It is still no use even considering getting this close to correct using the PITT.

rich_f Wrote:http://www.swisherpens.com/catalog/compa...sh-pen.htm

Right now, the Profit runs $22, but it comes with a pack of refills, and they have a pretty decent shipping deal, too. They ship internationally, too. I've bought from them before, and they're easy to deal with.

I'll check the shipping. It's usually what turns me off from buying stuff online from overseas sources.

rich_f Wrote:So I mostly write in pencil. It's just faster.

Indeed! I can always write Chinese - since I get rid of the silly hiragana :-) - as fast as I write latin, "printed" style writing. Since I have not yet leaned cursive writing the quality of the characters are really bad, but it's nevertheless really FAST :-)

rich_f Wrote:Someone posted some links to pen-ji books before... I can't remember where, but I like this one:

http://tinyurl.com/7fkpdx

Yes, I saw that and another book when it was posted here. Problem is that amazon.co.jp has dumped all kinds of shipping apart from FedEx/DHL Express or something like that, to Europe and it's ridiculously expensive. When I buy books from amazon.com in US I ALWAYS use the cheapest shipping. The say it will arrive in 4-6 weeks, but I have never had to wait for that amount of time. The last time I think it didn't take much more than a week. RtH and two Chinese dictionaries have been on the way for a week or so now, but Christmas will of course have delayed the shipment a lot. Perhaps at the end of next week?

KanjiHanzi Wrote:Personal dogma and tip: Do NOT erase when practicing individual characters. Write a new one and a new one and a new... until it feels comfortable. It doesn't have to LOOK GOOD, but you should get to the point where it is more or less automatic to write THIS character. Then move on to the next one.

Writing Kanji/Hanzi is very much a matter of confidence. Go to nciku.com and look at the animations on every character page there and try to mimic that. Start with basic stuff like the moon and the sun. Repeat and repeat. Being able to write ONE character with confidence will help you get a more relaxed relationship with other characters too.

Actually I'm terrible with my writing habits, I will start a character, then think of something and come back to it half way through. I though this was just because I was new to kanji, but actually I have since caught myself doing it with English and the Roman alphabet, so it must be a habit I've picked up. This is probably some kind of heresy, but I kind of don't care how the kanji I write look (too much), and if the stroke order is slightly dodgy, then also I don't care too much; I've spoken to Japanese people around my age (I'm in my late 20s) and they pretty much all say the same thing, which is that their writing is really bad and their stroke order is a bit dodgy, so I'm not too worried. Again heresy, but my only desire is to be functional, not pretty

Jarvik7 Wrote:When I use a pencil I use 0.5mm 2B lead. Anything softer smudges too much. Anyone who has problems with snapping softer leads should try switching to a thicker diameter and not letting as much lead out of the feeding mechanism. Also, use a lighter touch, softer leads don't need as much pressure to make a nice line.

I've just developed so much pressure over the years in my writing hand from excessive writing that I can't go back to soft leads, and because my writing is smallish and scribbly a thicker lead is illegible. A 2H lead works well for me, but I know it sucks.

KanjiHanzi Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Why do you need a flexible nib? Are are you trying to emulate brush writing with a pen? That's not what penji is.

It's what Chinese "penji" is about. And I guess it's also what Japanese penji WAS about before the event of the ball point pen: emulating the brush painting. Look at almost every font not specifically made for printing books: emulating brush work.

emulating brush work by...

...using a brush! if you want it to look like it's written with a brush, wouldn't it make more sense to use a brush pen?

do you have an example of writing with a fountain pen to emulate brush writing?

cangy Wrote:emulating brush work by...

...using a brush! if you want it to look like it's written with a brush, wouldn't it make more sense to use a brush pen?

do you have an example of writing with a fountain pen to emulate brush writing?

If you read above you will see that "every" type of pen/pencil writing and font is "emulating" brush work, or is based upon it. You don't use a brush when you need to use a pen/pencil or print a book :-)

If you search on Google and look at the images there, I am sure you will find plenty of examples:

http://tinyurl.com/83rjl2

I just got this link from Norman at http://www.hisnibs.com/

://www.hisnibs.com/

His wife is doing PEN BRUSH WORK in a show sent by PBS, but it's mostly Norman doing the talking. Very interesting!!!

PS Here is the very interesting pen - Brush pen + ink roller ball combined!!! - she is using in the tiny snippet:

http://www.hisnibs.com/uranus_2018.htm

Sold out at the moment, though

KanjiHanzi Wrote:If you read above you will see that "every" type of pen/pencil writing and font is "emulating" brush work, or is based upon it. You don't use a brush when you need to use a pen/pencil or print a book :-)

actually some fonts are based directly on woodcut typography, only indirectly on the brush writing, others have an even weight, again only indirectly based on the actual appearance of brush work...

ball pen and pencil writing is different from brush writing, there's no stroke types with different speeds and weights, just even lines, with at most a sharp tick

you seem to be talking about emulating the look of brush writing -- actual brush strokes with the correct shape and variations of thickness -- using a metal nibbed fountain pen. I can't see the point of that when you can use an actual brush pen

KanjiHanzi Wrote:If you search on Google and look at the images there, I am sure you will find plenty of examples:

http://tinyurl.com/83rjl2

I'd previously tried searches like that and got nothing, just like that search, which is why I asked for a concrete example

cangy Wrote:actually some fonts are based directly on woodcut typography, only indirectly on the brush writing, others have an even weight, again only indirectly based on the actual appearance of brush work...

The you have to ask: which came first: brush painting, woodcut typography, or fonts. I can provide you with tons of PRESERVED brush writing dating back AT LEAST as far a millennium back. - I can look in case you want to know the oldest samples available - Can you find any woodcut typography IN JAPAN even a fraction of that old?

cangy Wrote:ball pen and pencil writing is different from brush writing, there's no stroke types with different speeds and weights, just even lines, with at most a sharp tick

That's simply because that kind of "PENJI" today is bad. Good PENJI always follow ROUGHLY the same movements a brush do when writing. But since the is no fluid ink and no flexible bristles, the result is of course also LOOKING different.

cangy Wrote:you seem to be talking about emulating the look of brush writing -- actual brush strokes with the correct shape and variations of thickness -- using a metal nibbed fountain pen. I can't see the point of that when you can use an actual brush pen

That's because you haven't tried it enough or at all. There is no way to write at the same speed with a brush pen aswith a fountain pen or any other kind of pen/pencil unless you are a real professional. Please read the excellent stuff Rich posted here before jumping to conclusions: SHODO is VERY hard to learn, PENJI is much easier to learn.

cangy Wrote:http://tinyurl.com/83rjl2
I'd previously tried searches like that and got nothing, just like that search, which is why I asked for a concrete example

Then you haven't looked hard enough. The best stuff I have found on the net has been discussed here with links in the past. Now I can't get any hit when searching on PENJI apart from this particular thread which is not correct. PENJI samples, PENJI books etc. have been discussed a lot of times here before. Neither is PEN SAMPLES giving any results.

Ahhhh: PEN MODELS will probably give what you require and more than that. Happy reading!

To get you started

Books/links on handwriting
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1427

I am pretty sure the pdf-files I am mostly thinking of is to be found somewhere in these thread, but I just don't have time to do YOUR homework now (and have no clue where the links/originals on my computer can be). They ARE there somewhere, but......

Just in case you also have problems with searching on amazon.co.jp:

http://tinyurl.com/8sfy9j

593 hits on Japanese Books › "ペン字"

I see that there are several books included in the Look Inside feature. Just look at them. If you have any clue at all about writing you will IMMEDIATELY see that the whole idea of PENJI is to follow the rules of BRUSH WORK as detailed above.

In case THAT isn't enough: find a sample of the many SHODO BOOKS where the actual MOVEMENT of the hand/brush is indicated by a single and thin line. PENJI is a simple version of that particular line with VARIABLE width and pressure applied to the pen to get it to MIMIC the variations possible with a brush.

cangy Wrote:ball pen and pencil writing is different from brush writing, there's no stroke types with different speeds and weights, just even lines, with at most a sharp tick

Now, when I've done all your homework: Could you please look inside the books at amazon.co.jp and provide us with A SINGLE BOOK ON PENJI where the description above is true. Thank you.

If you're going to buy Japanese books, try bk1.jp. It has better shipping options, no handling fees, cost-only shipping, and a point club. I've been buying my books there for about 8 months now, no regrets. No English help, so you better have Rikaichan loaded.

EMS is ungodly expensive, and 船便 is ungodly slow. I usually compromise with 航空便 (air mail). Fast-ish, somewhat expensive, but not as bad as Amazon.

They're good about offering deals. They just ended a campaign where if you bought 10,000円 worth of books, you could get a 1,000円 gift certificate off of your next purchase. I managed to get three of those in three months. Pretty handy.

rich_f Wrote:If you're going to buy Japanese books, try bk1.jp.

Thanks a lot, Rich. Been there a long time ago, but have sort of forgotten the site.

rich_f Wrote:No English help, so you better have Rikaichan loaded.

I am perfectly happy being able to paste ISBN from Amazon.co.jp. I think I can manage to register without too much handholding from Rikai San :-)

Unfortunately my main shopping target, The Blue Goddess, had exactly the same price tag as amazon.co.jp: ¥18,900 so the difference in shipping is currently a monor issue. But WHEN I get my hands on ¥18,900, I will most certainly use bk1.jp.

I will actually shop around a bit for the best Penji and Shodo books at bk1.jp. I am a little nervous right now, since I got a report from the airport that the plane my wife/daughter was supposed to be riding to Beijing might be entirely canceled. I sent a long shopping list with this kind of books to buy in China. They are ridiculously cheap there: roughly 7-8 Yuan each, that's less than a dollar a book! And up in smoke goes my bagful of nice Chinese fountain pens!!!!!

Am I what? Yes! Well, not so much for my own shopping, actually. They have spent so much time planning for this intense trip that it would be a shame if they can't go now. I am perfectly happy to shop via the net since I have found all the places now when making that shopping list :-)

KanjiHanzi Wrote:The you have to ask: which came first: brush painting, woodcut typography, or fonts. I can provide you with tons of PRESERVED brush writing dating back AT LEAST as far a millennium back. - I can look in case you want to know the oldest samples available - Can you find any woodcut typography IN JAPAN even a fraction of that old?

A millennium in Chinese history is nothing. The ding bronze from Fu Hao's tomb has engravings of Chinese characters (her name) and dates to ~1200BCE (when Chinese still practiced human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism). Bone engravings date back even further (pre-1600BCE). We have no extant examples of brush writing from anytime near as old. This is both because engraving predates brushwork, and because the materials used in brushwork don't stand up to the stresses of time very well.

Anyways, it's a moot point. Penji is writing characters with a pen, with fixed line widths. I've never seen a single penji book that was otherwise. I suggest you actually read the instructions/lessons in the penji books before claiming that they want you to emulate brush angles and pressure etc and just indicate the general path with a simple line, because they don't say anything of the sort. Maybe that book on 筆ペン字 does, but fudepenji is not penji.

Maybe China is different, I don't know enough about modern Chinese writing to say. But the Chinese don't call it penji in any case

A good reason why many fonts don't emulate penji instead of brush or printing blocks is the same reason that many fonts don't emulate English handwriting. Handwriting is easy to write, but it's not easy to read. Thats why people don't use Lucida Handwriting everywhere.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Anyways, it's a moot point. Penji is writing characters with a pen, with fixed line widths.

It is??? So writing with a fountain pen is not considered as penji in Japan? Was penji born at the same time as ballpoint pens?

Jarvik7 Wrote:I've never seen a single penji book that was otherwise. I suggest you actually read the instructions/lessons in the penji books before claiming that they want you to emulate brush angles and pressure etc and just indicate the general path with a simple line, because they don't say anything of the sort. Maybe that book on 筆ペン字 does, but fudepenji is not penji.

Have YOU read any books and LOOKED at the images of the characters? Did you actually LOOK in any of the books at amazon.co.jp?? Or do you have books yourself?

I had to look in my Cambridge dictionary to see if I totally have misunderstood the word "emulate", "to copy something achieved by someone else and try to do it as well as they have", which is roughly what I meant, with the addition HERE "and accepting the different nature and the limitations of using a pen instead of a brush".

Just take the first four strokes in 菜 (and a pity you can't adjust the size of the characters when posting): Even the horizontal stroke has 1) a slight "hook" to the left in many penji styles and 2) and a corresponding "tapering off" at the right side. What is this if not an "imitation" of the brush movements? (Maybe not so much the right side since you go back a bit in Shodo there).

The two downwards strokes in the "grass/flower" component are almost always written with CLEAR hooks at the beginning and a CLEAR fading out at the lower end; i.e. you reduce the pressure and start to lift the pen. Same with the first stroke in the claw component: Distinct hook at first and a gradually thinner line. This can be more or less obvious, but I have yet to see any sample without anything of this. It's only beginners writing these "strokes" as straight lines with no variation!

Jarvik7 Wrote:Maybe China is different, I don't know enough about modern Chinese writing to say. But the Chinese don't call it penji in any case

Since the name of the game here seems to be rudeness, I don't apologize for being a bit rude: You do not seem to know much about "modern Japanese writing" either. The Chinese don't call it penji. Correct. They call it 硬筆書法 (simplified characters: 硬笔书法) meaning (writing) calligraphy with a stiff writing tool.

I learned that today in another forum where it is possible to post a straightforward question and get FACTS in reply. Here it seems to be a lot of OPINION only from people assuming they no everything that can be learned about the Sino-Japanese writing system by merely rushing through RtK as fast as possible. Not so.

ファブリス Wrote:I'm fed up with this. KanjiHanzi you are banned

lol